Discussion:
Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
(too old to reply)
wageslave_1999
2007-10-21 17:07:00 UTC
Permalink
This is a repeat of a post that I originally submitted in Feb. 2006.
entitled 'Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!' The reason for this re-
posting is that I was doing some further research on the subject of
industrialized agriculture. (I am currently reading Upton
Sinclair's 'The Jungle' whilst simultaneously reading 'The Omnivors
Dilema' by Michael Pollan.) As such I was revisiting my original post
to gather information (the table in the index)when it occured to me
that not one fellow socialist had replied to my original post.
It further occured to me that as current postings appear to be
somewhat long on 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' and
somewhat short on any substantive discourse( my subjective opinion-ha
ha ha)that I would recycle this post.
Anyhoo, I simply want to throw this back into the ring to see if
the underlying idea behind Pieter Lawrence's posting--finding
socialist solutions to capitalist problems without producing some
(dreaded) blueprint for future socialists to follow, would galvanize
socialists to both that idea as well as to emphasising our prime
objective: disseminating socialist ideas and making socialists.

here we go......
====================================================================

Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!



Pieter Lawrence, in his excellent post (29587) suggested that a
good way for socialists to educate the world about socialism would
be to demonstrate how much of a difference socialism could make to
present day society, rather than to simply speculate over some future
society.

PL wrote:

"… Positive, practical socialism should be the main content of our
case and without it our movement cannot expect to make progress…but
let me… giv(e) an example of the work that can be done. Probably
the worst problem suffered by humanity is poverty and malnutrition.
It's getting worse. In 1975 435 million people were seriously
undernourished. In 2000 this number had risen to 825 million.

The basis of food production is cereal production (and has been
since the agricultural revolution) We can say what is current world
cereal production. We can project a figure by which it should be
increased. We could propose the world organisation required to get
this done.."

Paul Azzario (Wageslave) replies:

As Pieter Lawrence suggested using agriculture as an example, I have
been researching world agricultural statistics using the United
Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation's excellent statistical
data program `FAOSTAT'. This data base is astonishing in its size, as
it encompasses every nation and every crop produced on the planet.

With this data base you can determine almost any agricultural
statistic that you can conceive. I wanted to determine the
global production yield of selected major crops in comparison to the
area of land needed to grow 'feed' for agricultural herd animals.

My hypothesis is that we could eliminate human starvation by
replacing the amount of crop lands dedicated to growing feed for
livestock with land to grow food directly for human consumption.

Secondly, if this was possible, how much would we need to
reduce land used for animal `feed' in order to eradicate human
starvation.

Firstly I would like to point you to a chart that I have compiled of
my research. It is located at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/files/

scroll all the way to the end. (World Agricultureal Production)

I would also like to make the following caveats. I am not an
agricultural expert, so I am just putting this data out there for
future debate. I have a feeling that some of the data will be
incorrect for various reasons. The most obvious (to me) being that
the data for certain crops like sunflower seed cakes, and indeed
all `cake' crops, may well turn out to be simply by-products of
other crops e.g. sunflower oil. I am not sure of this, as I was
unable to find whether these two crops would constitute `double
accounting' where it comes to calculating total land area usage.
Explanation of the table:

Col.1 is the name of the crop
Col.2 is the total metric tonnage produced in 2002.
Col.3 is the total metric tonnage of that crop produced specifically
for animal `feed'
Col. 4 is the percentage of feed produced per crop
Col. 5 is the total area of the crop
Col. 6 is area of each crop grown

The total at the bottom of col.5, (1,175,935,500 hectares)
represents 76.33 % of all arable land and land used for permanent
crops in 2002 (1,540,572,000 ha.)

As can be seen, there are a total of over 523 million hectares
of farm land devoted purely to growing animal food, or 44.49% of all
total farmland! Put another way, this is more than all the land used
to grow the entire worlds supply of the following crops: Wheat,
Barley, Corn (Maize), Soybeans, Oats and Potatoes!

Whilst I am not suggesting that socialism will mandate
vegetarianism, I am suggesting that socialism will be able to feed
all of humanity by simply decreasing our meat and dairy production.
If we were to cut land use for animal feed by 30 percent for
instance, we would be able to double world production of
corn and oats.

The beauty of this demonstration, as Pieter Lawrence stated, is
that this is not some utopian, futuristic ideal, but a concrete
example of how socialism would change things for the better in the
here and now should society be re-organised to reflect the emphasis
of human need as opposed to the bank accounts of a handfull of muli-
billionaires.

It is this that Mike Lepore stated that we should be
publicising to the media in order to promote socialism as a
practical alternative, and it is exactly this that I stated (in
concurrence) as a way of unifying the various factions within
socialism by means of emphasising the `macro-socialist' ideas as
opposed to squabbling over the `micro-socialist' details that
the neophyte is unable to understand.

Yours for Socialism;
Paul Azzario.
trotfinder2007
2007-10-21 17:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Paul

I think the trouble is it requires a very deep knowledge of the area
before making a statement. Half-baked assessments, not backed by
serious scientific fact, are way worse than no statements.

Pieter was a very well read man of course and the "practical
socialism" bit of the WSM case is sorely missing his drive now that he
has passed on.

I feel a bit guilty actually as the environmental side of agriculture
is my college speciality. I think the words "get your finger out,
comrade!" are justly applicable to me. (An ex-comrade, Robin Cox, is
an expert on matters agricultural; whether he would assist the WSM on
this matter is another thing.)

Graham
hud955
2007-10-21 19:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Paul,

I've been recently talking to a group of friends loosely associated
with the Green Party on environmental issues.

Though their imagination is still largely captured by capitalist
ideas they have been very open to discussing and considering
socialist alternatives. This has resulted in several imaginative
conversations about resource management and the impact that
alternative forms of social/economic organisation might have upon
it. A couple of them have some expertise in this area and started
to run with the idea of common ownership, working out for themselves
what its impact might be.

I think Pieter's approach as you describe it, sounds very practical
and realistic. It captures the imagination. It is graspable
(although I think there is room for discussing pinheads, I am not
entirely stuck on them :-)), and it is much closer to the kind of
approach that people are familiar with from the media - without the
ideological spin, of course.

I'm also tempted to suggest that, on the basis of my recent
discussions, above, it might also be a way of opening up the debate
with other non-socialist political groups. I'm all for discussing
socialism with others in a less traditionally adversarial way (I
sometimes think we treat non-socialist members of the working class
as enemies to be defeated).

So, thanks for this. A lot to think about.

YFS

Richard
Post by wageslave_1999
This is a repeat of a post that I originally submitted in Feb. 2006.
entitled 'Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!' The reason for this re-
posting is that I was doing some further research on the subject of
industrialized agriculture. (I am currently reading Upton
Sinclair's 'The Jungle' whilst simultaneously reading 'The
Omnivors
Post by wageslave_1999
Dilema' by Michael Pollan.) As such I was revisiting my original post
to gather information (the table in the index)when it occured to me
that not one fellow socialist had replied to my original post.
It further occured to me that as current postings appear to be
somewhat long on 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' and
somewhat short on any substantive discourse( my subjective opinion-
ha
Post by wageslave_1999
ha ha)that I would recycle this post.
Anyhoo, I simply want to throw this back into the ring to see if
the underlying idea behind Pieter Lawrence's posting--finding
socialist solutions to capitalist problems without producing some
(dreaded) blueprint for future socialists to follow, would
galvanize
Post by wageslave_1999
socialists to both that idea as well as to emphasising our prime
objective: disseminating socialist ideas and making socialists.
here we go......
====================================================================
Post by wageslave_1999
Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!
Pieter Lawrence, in his excellent post (29587) suggested that a
good way for socialists to educate the world about socialism would
be to demonstrate how much of a difference socialism could make to
present day society, rather than to simply speculate over some
future
Post by wageslave_1999
society.
"… Positive, practical socialism should be the main content of our
case and without it our movement cannot expect to make progress…but
let me… giv(e) an example of the work that can be done. Probably
the worst problem suffered by humanity is poverty and malnutrition.
It's getting worse. In 1975 435 million people were seriously
undernourished. In 2000 this number had risen to 825 million.
The basis of food production is cereal production (and has been
since the agricultural revolution) We can say what is current world
cereal production. We can project a figure by which it should be
increased. We could propose the world organisation required to get
this done.."
As Pieter Lawrence suggested using agriculture as an example, I have
been researching world agricultural statistics using the United
Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation's excellent statistical
data program `FAOSTAT'. This data base is astonishing in its size, as
it encompasses every nation and every crop produced on the planet.
With this data base you can determine almost any agricultural
statistic that you can conceive. I wanted to determine the
global production yield of selected major crops in comparison to the
area of land needed to grow 'feed' for agricultural herd animals.
My hypothesis is that we could eliminate human starvation by
replacing the amount of crop lands dedicated to growing feed for
livestock with land to grow food directly for human consumption.
Secondly, if this was possible, how much would we need to
reduce land used for animal `feed' in order to eradicate human
starvation.
Firstly I would like to point you to a chart that I have compiled of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/files/
scroll all the way to the end. (World Agricultureal Production)
I would also like to make the following caveats. I am not an
agricultural expert, so I am just putting this data out there for
future debate. I have a feeling that some of the data will be
incorrect for various reasons. The most obvious (to me) being that
the data for certain crops like sunflower seed cakes, and indeed
all `cake' crops, may well turn out to be simply by-products of
other crops e.g. sunflower oil. I am not sure of this, as I was
unable to find whether these two crops would constitute `double
accounting' where it comes to calculating total land area usage.
Col.1 is the name of the crop
Col.2 is the total metric tonnage produced in 2002.
Col.3 is the total metric tonnage of that crop produced
specifically
Post by wageslave_1999
for animal `feed'
Col. 4 is the percentage of feed produced per crop
Col. 5 is the total area of the crop
Col. 6 is area of each crop grown
The total at the bottom of col.5, (1,175,935,500 hectares)
represents 76.33 % of all arable land and land used for permanent
crops in 2002 (1,540,572,000 ha.)
As can be seen, there are a total of over 523 million hectares
of farm land devoted purely to growing animal food, or 44.49% of all
total farmland! Put another way, this is more than all the land used
to grow the entire worlds supply of the following crops: Wheat,
Barley, Corn (Maize), Soybeans, Oats and Potatoes!
Whilst I am not suggesting that socialism will mandate
vegetarianism, I am suggesting that socialism will be able to feed
all of humanity by simply decreasing our meat and dairy
production.
Post by wageslave_1999
If we were to cut land use for animal feed by 30 percent for
instance, we would be able to double world production of
corn and oats.
The beauty of this demonstration, as Pieter Lawrence stated, is
that this is not some utopian, futuristic ideal, but a concrete
example of how socialism would change things for the better in the
here and now should society be re-organised to reflect the emphasis
of human need as opposed to the bank accounts of a handfull of
muli-
Post by wageslave_1999
billionaires.
It is this that Mike Lepore stated that we should be
publicising to the media in order to promote socialism as a
practical alternative, and it is exactly this that I stated (in
concurrence) as a way of unifying the various factions within
socialism by means of emphasising the `macro-socialist' ideas as
opposed to squabbling over the `micro-socialist' details that
the neophyte is unable to understand.
Yours for Socialism;
Paul Azzario.
Brian Gardner
2007-10-22 23:00:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi Paul, Hud and others,

I have a lot of sympathy for the view being expressed that we can -
and indeed should - discuss how socialism may (repeat, may) organise
production in the absence of the market, in relation to statistics
available in the here and now.

Firstly, it can help to bring home to a listener/sympathiser just how
badly capitalism meets human needs in a concrete fashion. Secondly,
in my view (and there is no evidence for or against this, just my
optimism) if & when people get the opportunity to analyse those areas
of production that they are expert in (ie their own work/workplace)
from a practical socialist perspective for themselves, it could turn
out to be a very important consciousness-raising step. Rather than
coming across socialist ideas in the abstract it would be practically-
based. Rather than being vague it could be specific. Rather than
relating to some indeterminate time in the future, it could be
immediate. Most importantly (in my view) in terms of how we make
socialists, this approach would involve socialist principles being
developed in specific contexts (eg "how would my workplace operate
iin the absence of the market ?") by those best placed to know,
instead of being handed down as broad, vague principles by the Party
(tho'in fairness we in WSM take pains to avoid that impression). I
really think that this could be an important motor for the spread of
socialist ideas.

It may also help to mitigate against the very dangerous and off-
putting idea (held by some socialists, it should be said) that
socialism would predominantly be a centralised system of production
with lots of hierarchical levels of decision-making, committees and
referenda.

As mentioned the Production for Use Committee is moribund after
having a brief flourish 4 or 5 years back. I have been (slowly)
working on my own pet subject (socially unproductive labour inside
capitalism). I do think structural waste inside capitalism presents
powerful arguments for socialism, and the closer we look, the more
powerful and robust these arguments become.

If any of the comrades contributing to this discussion would be
interested in formalising things and kick-starting the PfU committee,
we could possibly identify a suitable scope and strategy that links
some of these areas that are being discussed (eg world hunger), and
see where our thinking gets us.

Certainly, compared to the last time the PfU committee was
functioning, there is now absolutely no shortage of data from
capitalism to use. Thanks to the internet, our task is to analyse it
and use that information constructively as tools in arguing for
socialism.

YfS
Brian Gardner
(Glasgow Branch, SPGB)
Post by hud955
Hi Paul,
I've been recently talking to a group of friends loosely associated
with the Green Party on environmental issues.
Though their imagination is still largely captured by capitalist
ideas they have been very open to discussing and considering
socialist alternatives. This has resulted in several imaginative
conversations about resource management and the impact that
alternative forms of social/economic organisation might have upon
it. A couple of them have some expertise in this area and started
to run with the idea of common ownership, working out for
themselves
Post by hud955
what its impact might be.
I think Pieter's approach as you describe it, sounds very practical
and realistic. It captures the imagination. It is graspable
(although I think there is room for discussing pinheads, I am not
entirely stuck on them :-)), and it is much closer to the kind of
approach that people are familiar with from the media - without the
ideological spin, of course.
I'm also tempted to suggest that, on the basis of my recent
discussions, above, it might also be a way of opening up the debate
with other non-socialist political groups. I'm all for discussing
socialism with others in a less traditionally adversarial way (I
sometimes think we treat non-socialist members of the working class
as enemies to be defeated).
So, thanks for this. A lot to think about.
YFS
Richard
Post by wageslave_1999
This is a repeat of a post that I originally submitted in Feb.
2006.
Post by wageslave_1999
entitled 'Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!' The reason for
this
Post by hud955
re-
Post by wageslave_1999
posting is that I was doing some further research on the subject
of
Post by wageslave_1999
industrialized agriculture. (I am currently reading Upton
Sinclair's 'The Jungle' whilst simultaneously reading 'The
Omnivors
Post by wageslave_1999
Dilema' by Michael Pollan.) As such I was revisiting my original
post
Post by wageslave_1999
to gather information (the table in the index)when it occured to
me
Post by wageslave_1999
that not one fellow socialist had replied to my original post.
It further occured to me that as current postings appear to be
somewhat long on 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' and
somewhat short on any substantive discourse( my subjective
opinion-
Post by hud955
ha
Post by wageslave_1999
ha ha)that I would recycle this post.
Anyhoo, I simply want to throw this back into the ring to see
if
Post by wageslave_1999
the underlying idea behind Pieter Lawrence's posting--finding
socialist solutions to capitalist problems without producing some
(dreaded) blueprint for future socialists to follow, would
galvanize
Post by wageslave_1999
socialists to both that idea as well as to emphasising our prime
objective: disseminating socialist ideas and making socialists.
here we go......
====================================================================
Post by wageslave_1999
Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!
Pieter Lawrence, in his excellent post (29587) suggested that a
good way for socialists to educate the world about socialism would
be to demonstrate how much of a difference socialism could make to
present day society, rather than to simply speculate over some
future
Post by wageslave_1999
society.
"… Positive, practical socialism should be the main content of our
case and without it our movement cannot expect to make progress…
but
Post by hud955
Post by wageslave_1999
let me… giv(e) an example of the work that can be done. Probably
the worst problem suffered by humanity is poverty and
malnutrition.
Post by hud955
Post by wageslave_1999
It's getting worse. In 1975 435 million people were seriously
undernourished. In 2000 this number had risen to 825 million.
The basis of food production is cereal production (and has been
since the agricultural revolution) We can say what is current world
cereal production. We can project a figure by which it should be
increased. We could propose the world organisation required to get
this done.."
As Pieter Lawrence suggested using agriculture as an example, I
have
Post by wageslave_1999
been researching world agricultural statistics using the United
Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation's excellent
statistical
Post by hud955
Post by wageslave_1999
data program `FAOSTAT'. This data base is astonishing in its
size,
Post by hud955
as
Post by wageslave_1999
it encompasses every nation and every crop produced on the planet.
With this data base you can determine almost any agricultural
statistic that you can conceive. I wanted to determine the
global production yield of selected major crops in comparison to
the
Post by wageslave_1999
area of land needed to grow 'feed' for agricultural herd animals.
My hypothesis is that we could eliminate human starvation by
replacing the amount of crop lands dedicated to growing feed for
livestock with land to grow food directly for human consumption.
Secondly, if this was possible, how much would we need to
reduce land used for animal `feed' in order to eradicate human
starvation.
Firstly I would like to point you to a chart that I have compiled
of
Post by wageslave_1999
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/files/
scroll all the way to the end. (World Agricultureal Production)
I would also like to make the following caveats. I am not an
agricultural expert, so I am just putting this data out there for
future debate. I have a feeling that some of the data will be
incorrect for various reasons. The most obvious (to me) being that
the data for certain crops like sunflower seed cakes, and indeed
all `cake' crops, may well turn out to be simply by-products of
other crops e.g. sunflower oil. I am not sure of this, as I was
unable to find whether these two crops would constitute `double
accounting' where it comes to calculating total land area usage.
Col.1 is the name of the crop
Col.2 is the total metric tonnage produced in 2002.
Col.3 is the total metric tonnage of that crop produced
specifically
Post by wageslave_1999
for animal `feed'
Col. 4 is the percentage of feed produced per crop
Col. 5 is the total area of the crop
Col. 6 is area of each crop grown
The total at the bottom of col.5, (1,175,935,500 hectares)
represents 76.33 % of all arable land and land used for permanent
crops in 2002 (1,540,572,000 ha.)
As can be seen, there are a total of over 523 million hectares
of farm land devoted purely to growing animal food, or 44.49% of
all
Post by wageslave_1999
total farmland! Put another way, this is more than all the land
used
Post by wageslave_1999
to grow the entire worlds supply of the following crops: Wheat,
Barley, Corn (Maize), Soybeans, Oats and Potatoes!
Whilst I am not suggesting that socialism will mandate
vegetarianism, I am suggesting that socialism will be able to feed
all of humanity by simply decreasing our meat and dairy
production.
Post by wageslave_1999
If we were to cut land use for animal feed by 30 percent for
instance, we would be able to double world production of
corn and oats.
The beauty of this demonstration, as Pieter Lawrence stated, is
that this is not some utopian, futuristic ideal, but a concrete
example of how socialism would change things for the better in the
here and now should society be re-organised to reflect the
emphasis
Post by hud955
Post by wageslave_1999
of human need as opposed to the bank accounts of a handfull of
muli-
Post by wageslave_1999
billionaires.
It is this that Mike Lepore stated that we should be
publicising to the media in order to promote socialism as a
practical alternative, and it is exactly this that I stated (in
concurrence) as a way of unifying the various factions within
socialism by means of emphasising the `macro-socialist' ideas as
opposed to squabbling over the `micro-socialist' details that
the neophyte is unable to understand.
Yours for Socialism;
Paul Azzario.
balmer_dave
2007-10-23 18:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Brian

You mentioned a important point I think with your;

"It may also help to mitigate against the very dangerous and off-
putting idea (held by some socialists, it should be said) that
socialism would predominantly be a centralised system of production
with lots of hierarchical levels of decision-making, committees and
referenda."

I think that how we would propose to democratically organise this
socialist society of ours is as much as a bugbear as how we would
organise production.

The problem can be seen as that we would have to be spending a huge
amount of time voting on everything. As well as the problem that
people who couldn't be bothered and just wanted to get on with their
lives would end up being organised by the congenital political hacks
who like nothing better than organising and arranging other peoples
lives.

There is actually a simple solution to this that works well if not
impeccably on a large scale. It is scientifically or mathematically
based and basically means the larger the group the less time each
individual has to spend `voting' and decision making.

It is probably far too radical for the conservatives but I would
like to know what is wrong with it. It is based on the mathematical
modelling of statistical sampling.

I posted something on this a long while ago on spopen and got no
response, so I think I will put it here.


"The theory of statistical sampling is well established and is based
on mathematical fundamental first principals not on empirical
evidence ie it is true. Ignoring people lying and not responding
etc. a sample of 5000 people randomly selected from a population of
say 50 million in a yes /no issue there will be a 99% chance that
the (%) voting figures (of the sample or poll) will be within +/-2%
of how the total population would have responded.

Ballpark figures and it is probably better than that .

The history of exit poll data discussed at length on this election
fraud issue, despite the major potential problem of lying and the
actual one of non response/participation in the order of 50%, has a
really impressive record. Non participation is an important issue as
a poll will then only tell you what people who are prepared to
answer a poll are thinking. In opinion polls normally in excess of
60% refuse to respond.

This is a shocking thing to say but it is true, there is no need for
200 million people to vote as a poll of 20,000 (properly organised
under correct criteria) will give you exactly the same result every
time. Science uses this principal all the time it is embedded in the
theory of experimentation. We wouldn't have (to have a) lying and non
participation problem in our system in a secret (or non secret) poll.

(On a complex issue like nuclear power where everyone could not
possibly spend their time in understanding all the complex and
technical information they would need to make a `rational' decision )

In the democratic process why couldn't we do it on a jury type
system but with big juries . If there is a complex subject to be
decided we get the experts to provide reports etc and argue amongst
themselves and get a Jury of 10,000 ordinary people randomly
selected to go through all the evidence.

The stats people would tell us what sample size was needed to
achieve levels confidence required etc. You could put all sorts of
safe guards in if you wanted, the ability to cancel the decision if
a majority and (or) over 30% ? of a plebiscite voted against it .
You could also (democratically) skew the sample population to
balance local versus global interests etc. A delegate or executive
committee could (perhaps) just pass these Jury votes on the nod or
not, or whatever.


In practice most if not all would just go through or the jury
investigation be repeated or expanded.

You could even be given (everyone) the option to vote on every
single issue or just tick one box that says " I agree with all jury
decisions unless stated otherwise" or a non vote would be considered
a yes to the jury vote.

If you had a voting population of 30,000,000 and jury of 3,000 we
could make 10,000 decisions a year by each person only having to
vote once.

What goes onto the agenda is another issue. The required sample size
(of the poll) as a % of the population drops dramatically as the
population size increases eg with 10 million you might need 1,000
whereas as for 100 million you would need 5,000.

Even at a local level , lets say a constituency of 50,000, we could
have weekly "parliaments" of say 1000 randomly selected constituents
voting on resolutions put forward by another body. That way I
wouldn't have to spend more than 2% of mine time voting which would
be too much for me but close
enough to 0%."


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spopen/message/4020
Post by Brian Gardner
Hi Paul, Hud and others,
I have a lot of sympathy for the view being expressed that we can -
and indeed should - discuss how socialism may (repeat, may)
organise
Post by Brian Gardner
production in the absence of the market, in relation to statistics
available in the here and now.
Firstly, it can help to bring home to a listener/sympathiser just how
badly capitalism meets human needs in a concrete fashion.
Secondly,
Post by Brian Gardner
in my view (and there is no evidence for or against this, just my
optimism) if & when people get the opportunity to analyse those areas
of production that they are expert in (ie their own work/workplace)
from a practical socialist perspective for themselves, it could turn
out to be a very important consciousness-raising step. Rather
than
Post by Brian Gardner
coming across socialist ideas in the abstract it would be
practically-
Robert Malone
2007-10-22 03:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Hi Paul,
just recently there was an article in the North & South Magazine
(NZ) on the huge increase in the number of dairy farms in NZ.
Some of the statistics quoted support your concerns about the way food is
produced, and the way this affects the environment.

New Zealand has 5.2 million dairy cows producing 15 billion litres of milk
per year. The same article expresses concern about the pollution of many
waterways
By dairy farms and the ways this will eventually affect the aquifers that
are used to supply drinking water.

Water supply to the increasing numbers of dairy farms is also a major
problem, as one thousand litres of water are used to produce one litre of
milk.
(one pint is 600mililitres or .6 of a litre.)

Recreational fishermen and ecologists are concerned about the disappearance
of fish from many streams and the water is unsafe even for cattle to drink.

Regards

Bob Malone
Post by wageslave_1999
This is a repeat of a post that I originally submitted in Feb. 2006.
entitled 'Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!' The reason for this re-
posting is that I was doing some further research on the subject of
industrialized agriculture. (I am currently reading Upton
Sinclair's 'The Jungle' whilst simultaneously reading 'The Omnivors
Dilema' by Michael Pollan.) As such I was revisiting my original post
to gather information (the table in the index)when it occured to me
that not one fellow socialist had replied to my original post.
It further occured to me that as current postings appear to be
somewhat long on 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' and
somewhat short on any substantive discourse( my subjective opinion-ha
ha ha)that I would recycle this post.
Anyhoo, I simply want to throw this back into the ring to see if
the underlying idea behind Pieter Lawrence's posting--finding
socialist solutions to capitalist problems without producing some
(dreaded) blueprint for future socialists to follow, would galvanize
socialists to both that idea as well as to emphasising our prime
objective: disseminating socialist ideas and making socialists.
here we go......
====================================================================
Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!
Pieter Lawrence, in his excellent post (29587) suggested that a
good way for socialists to educate the world about socialism would
be to demonstrate how much of a difference socialism could make to
present day society, rather than to simply speculate over some future
society.
"… Positive, practical socialism should be the main content of our
case and without it our movement cannot expect to make progress…but
let me… giv(e) an example of the work that can be done. Probably
the worst problem suffered by humanity is poverty and malnutrition.
It's getting worse. In 1975 435 million people were seriously
undernourished. In 2000 this number had risen to 825 million.
The basis of food production is cereal production (and has been
since the agricultural revolution) We can say what is current world
cereal production. We can project a figure by which it should be
increased. We could propose the world organisation required to get
this done.."
As Pieter Lawrence suggested using agriculture as an example, I have
been researching world agricultural statistics using the United
Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation's excellent statistical
data program `FAOSTAT'. This data base is astonishing in its size, as
it encompasses every nation and every crop produced on the planet.
With this data base you can determine almost any agricultural
statistic that you can conceive. I wanted to determine the
global production yield of selected major crops in comparison to the
area of land needed to grow 'feed' for agricultural herd animals.
My hypothesis is that we could eliminate human starvation by
replacing the amount of crop lands dedicated to growing feed for
livestock with land to grow food directly for human consumption.
Secondly, if this was possible, how much would we need to
reduce land used for animal `feed' in order to eradicate human
starvation.
Firstly I would like to point you to a chart that I have compiled of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/files/
scroll all the way to the end. (World Agricultureal Production)
I would also like to make the following caveats. I am not an
agricultural expert, so I am just putting this data out there for
future debate. I have a feeling that some of the data will be
incorrect for various reasons. The most obvious (to me) being that
the data for certain crops like sunflower seed cakes, and indeed
all `cake' crops, may well turn out to be simply by-products of
other crops e.g. sunflower oil. I am not sure of this, as I was
unable to find whether these two crops would constitute `double
accounting' where it comes to calculating total land area usage.
Col.1 is the name of the crop
Col.2 is the total metric tonnage produced in 2002.
Col.3 is the total metric tonnage of that crop produced specifically
for animal `feed'
Col. 4 is the percentage of feed produced per crop
Col. 5 is the total area of the crop
Col. 6 is area of each crop grown
The total at the bottom of col.5, (1,175,935,500 hectares)
represents 76.33 % of all arable land and land used for permanent
crops in 2002 (1,540,572,000 ha.)
As can be seen, there are a total of over 523 million hectares
of farm land devoted purely to growing animal food, or 44.49% of all
total farmland! Put another way, this is more than all the land used
to grow the entire worlds supply of the following crops: Wheat,
Barley, Corn (Maize), Soybeans, Oats and Potatoes!
Whilst I am not suggesting that socialism will mandate
vegetarianism, I am suggesting that socialism will be able to feed
all of humanity by simply decreasing our meat and dairy production.
If we were to cut land use for animal feed by 30 percent for
instance, we would be able to double world production of
corn and oats.
The beauty of this demonstration, as Pieter Lawrence stated, is
that this is not some utopian, futuristic ideal, but a concrete
example of how socialism would change things for the better in the
here and now should society be re-organised to reflect the emphasis
of human need as opposed to the bank accounts of a handfull of muli-
billionaires.
It is this that Mike Lepore stated that we should be
publicising to the media in order to promote socialism as a
practical alternative, and it is exactly this that I stated (in
concurrence) as a way of unifying the various factions within
socialism by means of emphasising the `macro-socialist' ideas as
opposed to squabbling over the `micro-socialist' details that
the neophyte is unable to understand.
Yours for Socialism;
Paul Azzario.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-25 16:03:04 UTC
Permalink
In some places, the farmers, they use salt and 'melasa", in order to
motivate the cows to drink more water everyday, every hour, and every
seconds. In Argentina and Brazil they have destroyed thousands of acres of
forest in order to plant soybeans for the Chinese, and the soybean is used
in order to feed the cows in China, by keeping them in small areas, which
will require large extension of lands. In many places on earth, cows are not
eating grass anymore.
Post by hud955
Hi Paul,
just recently there was an article in the North & South Magazine
(NZ) on the huge increase in the number of dairy farms in NZ.
Some of the statistics quoted support your concerns about the way food is
produced, and the way this affects the environment.
New Zealand has 5.2 million dairy cows producing 15 billion litres of milk
per year. The same article expresses concern about the pollution of many
waterways
By dairy farms and the ways this will eventually affect the aquifers that
are used to supply drinking water.
Water supply to the increasing numbers of dairy farms is also a major
problem, as one thousand litres of water are used to produce one litre of
milk.
(one pint is 600mililitres or .6 of a litre.)
Recreational fishermen and ecologists are concerned about the
disappearance
of fish from many streams and the water is unsafe even for cattle to drink.
Regards
Bob Malone
Post by wageslave_1999
This is a repeat of a post that I originally submitted in Feb. 2006.
entitled 'Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!' The reason for this re-
posting is that I was doing some further research on the subject of
industrialized agriculture. (I am currently reading Upton
Sinclair's 'The Jungle' whilst simultaneously reading 'The Omnivors
Dilema' by Michael Pollan.) As such I was revisiting my original post
to gather information (the table in the index)when it occured to me
that not one fellow socialist had replied to my original post.
It further occured to me that as current postings appear to be
somewhat long on 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' and
somewhat short on any substantive discourse( my subjective opinion-ha
ha ha)that I would recycle this post.
Anyhoo, I simply want to throw this back into the ring to see if
the underlying idea behind Pieter Lawrence's posting--finding
socialist solutions to capitalist problems without producing some
(dreaded) blueprint for future socialists to follow, would galvanize
socialists to both that idea as well as to emphasising our prime
objective: disseminating socialist ideas and making socialists.
here we go......
====================================================================
Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!
Pieter Lawrence, in his excellent post (29587) suggested that a
good way for socialists to educate the world about socialism would
be to demonstrate how much of a difference socialism could make to
present day society, rather than to simply speculate over some future
society.
"… Positive, practical socialism should be the main content of our
case and without it our movement cannot expect to make progress…but
let me… giv(e) an example of the work that can be done. Probably
the worst problem suffered by humanity is poverty and malnutrition.
It's getting worse. In 1975 435 million people were seriously
undernourished. In 2000 this number had risen to 825 million.
The basis of food production is cereal production (and has been
since the agricultural revolution) We can say what is current world
cereal production. We can project a figure by which it should be
increased. We could propose the world organisation required to get
this done.."
As Pieter Lawrence suggested using agriculture as an example, I have
been researching world agricultural statistics using the United
Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation's excellent statistical
data program `FAOSTAT'. This data base is astonishing in its size, as
it encompasses every nation and every crop produced on the planet.
With this data base you can determine almost any agricultural
statistic that you can conceive. I wanted to determine the
global production yield of selected major crops in comparison to the
area of land needed to grow 'feed' for agricultural herd animals.
My hypothesis is that we could eliminate human starvation by
replacing the amount of crop lands dedicated to growing feed for
livestock with land to grow food directly for human consumption.
Secondly, if this was possible, how much would we need to
reduce land used for animal `feed' in order to eradicate human
starvation.
Firstly I would like to point you to a chart that I have compiled of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/files/
scroll all the way to the end. (World Agricultureal Production)
I would also like to make the following caveats. I am not an
agricultural expert, so I am just putting this data out there for
future debate. I have a feeling that some of the data will be
incorrect for various reasons. The most obvious (to me) being that
the data for certain crops like sunflower seed cakes, and indeed
all `cake' crops, may well turn out to be simply by-products of
other crops e.g. sunflower oil. I am not sure of this, as I was
unable to find whether these two crops would constitute `double
accounting' where it comes to calculating total land area usage.
Col.1 is the name of the crop
Col.2 is the total metric tonnage produced in 2002.
Col.3 is the total metric tonnage of that crop produced specifically
for animal `feed'
Col. 4 is the percentage of feed produced per crop
Col. 5 is the total area of the crop
Col. 6 is area of each crop grown
The total at the bottom of col.5, (1,175,935,500 hectares)
represents 76.33 % of all arable land and land used for permanent
crops in 2002 (1,540,572,000 ha.)
As can be seen, there are a total of over 523 million hectares
of farm land devoted purely to growing animal food, or 44.49% of all
total farmland! Put another way, this is more than all the land used
to grow the entire worlds supply of the following crops: Wheat,
Barley, Corn (Maize), Soybeans, Oats and Potatoes!
Whilst I am not suggesting that socialism will mandate
vegetarianism, I am suggesting that socialism will be able to feed
all of humanity by simply decreasing our meat and dairy production.
If we were to cut land use for animal feed by 30 percent for
instance, we would be able to double world production of
corn and oats.
The beauty of this demonstration, as Pieter Lawrence stated, is
that this is not some utopian, futuristic ideal, but a concrete
example of how socialism would change things for the better in the
here and now should society be re-organised to reflect the emphasis
of human need as opposed to the bank accounts of a handfull of muli-
billionaires.
It is this that Mike Lepore stated that we should be
publicising to the media in order to promote socialism as a
practical alternative, and it is exactly this that I stated (in
concurrence) as a way of unifying the various factions within
socialism by means of emphasising the `macro-socialist' ideas as
opposed to squabbling over the `micro-socialist' details that
the neophyte is unable to understand.
Yours for Socialism;
Paul Azzario.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-26 06:18:30 UTC
Permalink
It is largely ignored that a vegetarian diet is ecoligically less harmfull
and needs a lot less space that a meat based diet, would it be anti
socialist to promote a vegetarian diet?

just as important with our love of traveling in our cars, which is a main
cause of enviromental degradation [not to mention negative health effects on
humans] , is putting the price of wheat up and will in the very near future
put up the price of all food, due to our growing need of bio-fuels.

perhaps most of our socalist comrades will wait till after the revolution to
abandon their car and meat diets to adopt a bicycle and a vegetarian diet?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcos Colome" <***@gmail.com>
To: <***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


In some places, the farmers, they use salt and 'melasa", in order to
motivate the cows to drink more water everyday, every hour, and every
seconds. In Argentina and Brazil they have destroyed thousands of acres of
forest in order to plant soybeans for the Chinese, and the soybean is used
in order to feed the cows in China, by keeping them in small areas, which
will require large extension of lands. In many places on earth, cows are not
eating grass anymore.
Post by hud955
Hi Paul,
just recently there was an article in the North & South Magazine
(NZ) on the huge increase in the number of dairy farms in NZ.
Some of the statistics quoted support your concerns about the way food is
produced, and the way this affects the environment.
New Zealand has 5.2 million dairy cows producing 15 billion litres of milk
per year. The same article expresses concern about the pollution of many
waterways
By dairy farms and the ways this will eventually affect the aquifers that
are used to supply drinking water.
Water supply to the increasing numbers of dairy farms is also a major
problem, as one thousand litres of water are used to produce one litre of
milk.
(one pint is 600mililitres or .6 of a litre.)
Recreational fishermen and ecologists are concerned about the
disappearance
of fish from many streams and the water is unsafe even for cattle to drink.
Regards
Bob Malone
On 10/22/07 6:07 AM, "wageslave_1999"
Post by wageslave_1999
This is a repeat of a post that I originally submitted in Feb. 2006.
entitled 'Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!' The reason for this re-
posting is that I was doing some further research on the subject of
industrialized agriculture. (I am currently reading Upton
Sinclair's 'The Jungle' whilst simultaneously reading 'The Omnivors
Dilema' by Michael Pollan.) As such I was revisiting my original post
to gather information (the table in the index)when it occured to me
that not one fellow socialist had replied to my original post.
It further occured to me that as current postings appear to be
somewhat long on 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' and
somewhat short on any substantive discourse( my subjective opinion-ha
ha ha)that I would recycle this post.
Anyhoo, I simply want to throw this back into the ring to see if
the underlying idea behind Pieter Lawrence's posting--finding
socialist solutions to capitalist problems without producing some
(dreaded) blueprint for future socialists to follow, would galvanize
socialists to both that idea as well as to emphasising our prime
objective: disseminating socialist ideas and making socialists.
here we go......
====================================================================
Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!
Pieter Lawrence, in his excellent post (29587) suggested that a
good way for socialists to educate the world about socialism would
be to demonstrate how much of a difference socialism could make to
present day society, rather than to simply speculate over some future
society.
". Positive, practical socialism should be the main content of our
case and without it our movement cannot expect to make progress.but
let me. giv(e) an example of the work that can be done. Probably
the worst problem suffered by humanity is poverty and malnutrition.
It's getting worse. In 1975 435 million people were seriously
undernourished. In 2000 this number had risen to 825 million.
The basis of food production is cereal production (and has been
since the agricultural revolution) We can say what is current world
cereal production. We can project a figure by which it should be
increased. We could propose the world organisation required to get
this done.."
As Pieter Lawrence suggested using agriculture as an example, I have
been researching world agricultural statistics using the United
Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation's excellent statistical
data program `FAOSTAT'. This data base is astonishing in its size, as
it encompasses every nation and every crop produced on the planet.
With this data base you can determine almost any agricultural
statistic that you can conceive. I wanted to determine the
global production yield of selected major crops in comparison to the
area of land needed to grow 'feed' for agricultural herd animals.
My hypothesis is that we could eliminate human starvation by
replacing the amount of crop lands dedicated to growing feed for
livestock with land to grow food directly for human consumption.
Secondly, if this was possible, how much would we need to
reduce land used for animal `feed' in order to eradicate human
starvation.
Firstly I would like to point you to a chart that I have compiled of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/files/
scroll all the way to the end. (World Agricultureal Production)
I would also like to make the following caveats. I am not an
agricultural expert, so I am just putting this data out there for
future debate. I have a feeling that some of the data will be
incorrect for various reasons. The most obvious (to me) being that
the data for certain crops like sunflower seed cakes, and indeed
all `cake' crops, may well turn out to be simply by-products of
other crops e.g. sunflower oil. I am not sure of this, as I was
unable to find whether these two crops would constitute `double
accounting' where it comes to calculating total land area usage.
Col.1 is the name of the crop
Col.2 is the total metric tonnage produced in 2002.
Col.3 is the total metric tonnage of that crop produced specifically
for animal `feed'
Col. 4 is the percentage of feed produced per crop
Col. 5 is the total area of the crop
Col. 6 is area of each crop grown
The total at the bottom of col.5, (1,175,935,500 hectares)
represents 76.33 % of all arable land and land used for permanent
crops in 2002 (1,540,572,000 ha.)
As can be seen, there are a total of over 523 million hectares
of farm land devoted purely to growing animal food, or 44.49% of all
total farmland! Put another way, this is more than all the land used
to grow the entire worlds supply of the following crops: Wheat,
Barley, Corn (Maize), Soybeans, Oats and Potatoes!
Whilst I am not suggesting that socialism will mandate
vegetarianism, I am suggesting that socialism will be able to feed
all of humanity by simply decreasing our meat and dairy production.
If we were to cut land use for animal feed by 30 percent for
instance, we would be able to double world production of
corn and oats.
The beauty of this demonstration, as Pieter Lawrence stated, is
that this is not some utopian, futuristic ideal, but a concrete
example of how socialism would change things for the better in the
here and now should society be re-organised to reflect the emphasis
of human need as opposed to the bank accounts of a handfull of muli-
billionaires.
It is this that Mike Lepore stated that we should be
publicising to the media in order to promote socialism as a
practical alternative, and it is exactly this that I stated (in
concurrence) as a way of unifying the various factions within
socialism by means of emphasising the `macro-socialist' ideas as
opposed to squabbling over the `micro-socialist' details that
the neophyte is unable to understand.
Yours for Socialism;
Paul Azzario.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links
Robert Malone
2007-10-26 08:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Marcos,
thank you for your interesting comments. Most of the water used on
dairy farms is for cleaning, because the cows are often eliminating their
waste while they are being milked. The effluent from the milking sheds is
nitrogen rich and when this enters the local waterways it can create an
algae that affects fish and other wildlife.

If it is any consolation to the vegetarians, milk solids are now earning New
Zealand farmers a lot more in export earnings than sheep-meat. So the market
might effectively reduce the lamb and mutton trade and supply more butter
and cheese.

Regards
Post by Marcos Colome
In some places, the farmers, they use salt and 'melasa", in order to
motivate the cows to drink more water everyday, every hour, and every
seconds. In Argentina and Brazil they have destroyed thousands of acres of
forest in order to plant soybeans for the Chinese, and the soybean is used
in order to feed the cows in China, by keeping them in small areas, which
will require large extension of lands. In many places on earth, cows are not
eating grass anymore.
Post by hud955
Hi Paul,
just recently there was an article in the North & South Magazine
(NZ) on the huge increase in the number of dairy farms in NZ.
Some of the statistics quoted support your concerns about the way food is
produced, and the way this affects the environment.
New Zealand has 5.2 million dairy cows producing 15 billion litres of milk
per year. The same article expresses concern about the pollution of many
waterways
By dairy farms and the ways this will eventually affect the aquifers that
are used to supply drinking water.
Water supply to the increasing numbers of dairy farms is also a major
problem, as one thousand litres of water are used to produce one litre of
milk.
(one pint is 600mililitres or .6 of a litre.)
Recreational fishermen and ecologists are concerned about the
disappearance
of fish from many streams and the water is unsafe even for cattle to drink.
Regards
Bob Malone
Post by wageslave_1999
This is a repeat of a post that I originally submitted in Feb. 2006.
entitled 'Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!' The reason for this re-
posting is that I was doing some further research on the subject of
industrialized agriculture. (I am currently reading Upton
Sinclair's 'The Jungle' whilst simultaneously reading 'The Omnivors
Dilema' by Michael Pollan.) As such I was revisiting my original post
to gather information (the table in the index)when it occured to me
that not one fellow socialist had replied to my original post.
It further occured to me that as current postings appear to be
somewhat long on 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' and
somewhat short on any substantive discourse( my subjective opinion-ha
ha ha)that I would recycle this post.
Anyhoo, I simply want to throw this back into the ring to see if
the underlying idea behind Pieter Lawrence's posting--finding
socialist solutions to capitalist problems without producing some
(dreaded) blueprint for future socialists to follow, would galvanize
socialists to both that idea as well as to emphasising our prime
objective: disseminating socialist ideas and making socialists.
here we go......
====================================================================
Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!
Pieter Lawrence, in his excellent post (29587) suggested that a
good way for socialists to educate the world about socialism would
be to demonstrate how much of a difference socialism could make to
present day society, rather than to simply speculate over some future
society.
"… Positive, practical socialism should be the main content of our
case and without it our movement cannot expect to make progress…but
let me… giv(e) an example of the work that can be done. Probably
the worst problem suffered by humanity is poverty and malnutrition.
It's getting worse. In 1975 435 million people were seriously
undernourished. In 2000 this number had risen to 825 million.
The basis of food production is cereal production (and has been
since the agricultural revolution) We can say what is current world
cereal production. We can project a figure by which it should be
increased. We could propose the world organisation required to get
this done.."
As Pieter Lawrence suggested using agriculture as an example, I have
been researching world agricultural statistics using the United
Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation's excellent statistical
data program `FAOSTAT'. This data base is astonishing in its size, as
it encompasses every nation and every crop produced on the planet.
With this data base you can determine almost any agricultural
statistic that you can conceive. I wanted to determine the
global production yield of selected major crops in comparison to the
area of land needed to grow 'feed' for agricultural herd animals.
My hypothesis is that we could eliminate human starvation by
replacing the amount of crop lands dedicated to growing feed for
livestock with land to grow food directly for human consumption.
Secondly, if this was possible, how much would we need to
reduce land used for animal `feed' in order to eradicate human
starvation.
Firstly I would like to point you to a chart that I have compiled of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/files/
scroll all the way to the end. (World Agricultureal Production)
I would also like to make the following caveats. I am not an
agricultural expert, so I am just putting this data out there for
future debate. I have a feeling that some of the data will be
incorrect for various reasons. The most obvious (to me) being that
the data for certain crops like sunflower seed cakes, and indeed
all `cake' crops, may well turn out to be simply by-products of
other crops e.g. sunflower oil. I am not sure of this, as I was
unable to find whether these two crops would constitute `double
accounting' where it comes to calculating total land area usage.
Col.1 is the name of the crop
Col.2 is the total metric tonnage produced in 2002.
Col.3 is the total metric tonnage of that crop produced specifically
for animal `feed'
Col. 4 is the percentage of feed produced per crop
Col. 5 is the total area of the crop
Col. 6 is area of each crop grown
The total at the bottom of col.5, (1,175,935,500 hectares)
represents 76.33 % of all arable land and land used for permanent
crops in 2002 (1,540,572,000 ha.)
As can be seen, there are a total of over 523 million hectares
of farm land devoted purely to growing animal food, or 44.49% of all
total farmland! Put another way, this is more than all the land used
to grow the entire worlds supply of the following crops: Wheat,
Barley, Corn (Maize), Soybeans, Oats and Potatoes!
Whilst I am not suggesting that socialism will mandate
vegetarianism, I am suggesting that socialism will be able to feed
all of humanity by simply decreasing our meat and dairy production.
If we were to cut land use for animal feed by 30 percent for
instance, we would be able to double world production of
corn and oats.
The beauty of this demonstration, as Pieter Lawrence stated, is
that this is not some utopian, futuristic ideal, but a concrete
example of how socialism would change things for the better in the
here and now should society be re-organised to reflect the emphasis
of human need as opposed to the bank accounts of a handfull of muli-
billionaires.
It is this that Mike Lepore stated that we should be
publicising to the media in order to promote socialism as a
practical alternative, and it is exactly this that I stated (in
concurrence) as a way of unifying the various factions within
socialism by means of emphasising the `macro-socialist' ideas as
opposed to squabbling over the `micro-socialist' details that
the neophyte is unable to understand.
Yours for Socialism;
Paul Azzario.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 01:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Environmentalist who are concern about climate change and lack of water should lead by example and refuse to eat meat because it takes a lot of grains and a lot of water to produce a miniscule amount of meat, and many of these expenses are subsidized by governments, and the grains eaten by these animals could be used for human consumption and take a toll on global hunger, but this is capitalism at work. People need to take consious decicions in a capitalist world, unfortunately being a vegetarian is like a sacrifice, this way of life is expensier because the market is oriented at these practices that hurt the environment and it's so cruel to animals, where profit is before of human needs.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Marcos Colome <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: jueves, 25 de octubre, 2007 12:03:04
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

In some places, the farmers, they use salt and 'melasa", in order to
motivate the cows to drink more water everyday, every hour, and every
seconds. In Argentina and Brazil they have destroyed thousands of acres of
forest in order to plant soybeans for the Chinese, and the soybean is used
in order to feed the cows in China, by keeping them in small areas, which
will require large extension of lands. In many places on earth, cows are not
eating grass anymore.
Post by hud955
Hi Paul,
just recently there was an article in the North & South Magazine
(NZ) on the huge increase in the number of dairy farms in NZ.
Some of the statistics quoted support your concerns about the way food is
produced, and the way this affects the environment.
New Zealand has 5.2 million dairy cows producing 15 billion litres of milk
per year. The same article expresses concern about the pollution of many
waterways
By dairy farms and the ways this will eventually affect the aquifers that
are used to supply drinking water.
Water supply to the increasing numbers of dairy farms is also a major
problem, as one thousand litres of water are used to produce one litre of
milk.
(one pint is 600mililitres or .6 of a litre.)
Recreational fishermen and ecologists are concerned about the
disappearance
of fish from many streams and the water is unsafe even for cattle to
drink.
Regards
Bob Malone
Post by wageslave_1999
This is a repeat of a post that I originally submitted in Feb. 2006.
entitled 'Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!' The reason for this re-
posting is that I was doing some further research on the subject of
industrialized agriculture. (I am currently reading Upton
Sinclair's 'The Jungle' whilst simultaneously reading 'The Omnivors
Dilema' by Michael Pollan.) As such I was revisiting my original post
to gather information (the table in the index)when it occured to me
that not one fellow socialist had replied to my original post.
It further occured to me that as current postings appear to be
somewhat long on 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' and
somewhat short on any substantive discourse( my subjective opinion-ha
ha ha)that I would recycle this post.
Anyhoo, I simply want to throw this back into the ring to see if
the underlying idea behind Pieter Lawrence's posting--finding
socialist solutions to capitalist problems without producing some
(dreaded) blueprint for future socialists to follow, would galvanize
socialists to both that idea as well as to emphasising our prime
objective: disseminating socialist ideas and making socialists.
here we go......
====================================================================
Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!
Pieter Lawrence, in his excellent post (29587) suggested that a
good way for socialists to educate the world about socialism would
be to demonstrate how much of a difference socialism could make to
present day society, rather than to simply speculate over some future
society.
"… Positive, practical socialism should be the main content of our
case and without it our movement cannot expect to make progress…but
let me… giv(e) an example of the work that can be done. Probably
the worst problem suffered by humanity is poverty and malnutrition.
It's getting worse. In 1975 435 million people were seriously
undernourished. In 2000 this number had risen to 825 million.
The basis of food production is cereal production (and has been
since the agricultural revolution) We can say what is current world
cereal production. We can project a figure by which it should be
increased. We could propose the world organisation required to get
this done.."
As Pieter Lawrence suggested using agriculture as an example, I have
been researching world agricultural statistics using the United
Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation's excellent statistical
data program `FAOSTAT'. This data base is astonishing in its size, as
it encompasses every nation and every crop produced on the planet.
With this data base you can determine almost any agricultural
statistic that you can conceive. I wanted to determine the
global production yield of selected major crops in comparison to the
area of land needed to grow 'feed' for agricultural herd animals.
My hypothesis is that we could eliminate human starvation by
replacing the amount of crop lands dedicated to growing feed for
livestock with land to grow food directly for human consumption.
Secondly, if this was possible, how much would we need to
reduce land used for animal `feed' in order to eradicate human
starvation.
Firstly I would like to point you to a chart that I have compiled of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WSM_Forum/files/
scroll all the way to the end. (World Agricultureal Production)
I would also like to make the following caveats. I am not an
agricultural expert, so I am just putting this data out there for
future debate. I have a feeling that some of the data will be
incorrect for various reasons. The most obvious (to me) being that
the data for certain crops like sunflower seed cakes, and indeed
all `cake' crops, may well turn out to be simply by-products of
other crops e.g. sunflower oil. I am not sure of this, as I was
unable to find whether these two crops would constitute `double
accounting' where it comes to calculating total land area usage.
Col.1 is the name of the crop
Col.2 is the total metric tonnage produced in 2002.
Col.3 is the total metric tonnage of that crop produced specifically
for animal `feed'
Col. 4 is the percentage of feed produced per crop
Col. 5 is the total area of the crop
Col. 6 is area of each crop grown
The total at the bottom of col.5, (1,175,935,500 hectares)
represents 76.33 % of all arable land and land used for permanent
crops in 2002 (1,540,572,000 ha.)
As can be seen, there are a total of over 523 million hectares
of farm land devoted purely to growing animal food, or 44.49% of all
total farmland! Put another way, this is more than all the land used
to grow the entire worlds supply of the following crops: Wheat,
Barley, Corn (Maize), Soybeans, Oats and Potatoes!
Whilst I am not suggesting that socialism will mandate
vegetarianism, I am suggesting that socialism will be able to feed
all of humanity by simply decreasing our meat and dairy production.
If we were to cut land use for animal feed by 30 percent for
instance, we would be able to double world production of
corn and oats.
The beauty of this demonstration, as Pieter Lawrence stated, is
that this is not some utopian, futuristic ideal, but a concrete
example of how socialism would change things for the better in the
here and now should society be re-organised to reflect the emphasis
of human need as opposed to the bank accounts of a handfull of muli-
billionaires.
It is this that Mike Lepore stated that we should be
publicising to the media in order to promote socialism as a
practical alternative, and it is exactly this that I stated (in
concurrence) as a way of unifying the various factions within
socialism by means of emphasising the `macro-socialist' ideas as
opposed to squabbling over the `micro-socialist' details that
the neophyte is unable to understand.
Yours for Socialism;
Paul Azzario.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links




____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorfotografo.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 12:07:06 UTC
Permalink
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're crazies and dismiss this for eternity. Today most people are suffering from fetishism, people crave for social status, they desperately dress, they make-up, they buy, in order to appear as more afluent than they really are. I don't think we can come and ask them to ride a bike. We need to promote the reality of the socialist idea, which is that a Socialist society doesn't necesarily need to make these kind of sacrifices in order to be succesful but rather that it will be this kind of society that it's people will gradually make this consicious decisions by themselves. I truly believe that the people in a socialist society will be more likely to take this kind of decisions like being vegetarian or moving to a home close to work in order to ride a bike and waste less fuel, but I still believe that this kind of society will
never be obligated to this, they will still have the option of eating animal meat of riding cars.

A socialist society will empower people to take personal responsability, as opposed from today, that responsability needs to come from a politician's pen or from the market and translate that responsability into a household financial burden. like increasing fuel prices or food prices. While the masses make extreme sacrifices, the owners of the means of production get richier.


Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Nick Tapping <***@ntlworld.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 2:18:30
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

It is largely ignored that a vegetarian diet is ecoligically less harmfull
and needs a lot less space that a meat based diet, would it be anti
socialist to promote a vegetarian diet?

just as important with our love of traveling in our cars, which is a main
cause of enviromental degradation [not to mention negative health effects on
humans] , is putting the price of wheat up and will in the very near future
put up the price of all food, due to our growing need of bio-fuels.

perhaps most of our socalist comrades will wait till after the revolution to
abandon their car and meat diets to adopt a bicycle and a vegetarian diet?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcos Colome" <UPRalmamater@ gmail.com>
To: <***@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

In some places, the farmers, they use salt and 'melasa", in order to
motivate the cows to drink more water everyday, every hour, and every
seconds. In Argentina and Brazil they have destroyed thousands of acres of
forest in order to plant soybeans for the Chinese, and the soybean is used
in order to feed the cows in China, by keeping them in small areas, which
will require large extension of lands. In many places on earth, cows are not
eating grass anymore.
Post by hud955
Hi Paul,
just recently there was an article in the North & South Magazine
(NZ) on the huge increase in the number of dairy farms in NZ.
Some of the statistics quoted support your concerns about the way food is
produced, and the way this affects the environment.
New Zealand has 5.2 million dairy cows producing 15 billion litres of milk
per year. The same article expresses concern about the pollution of many
waterways
By dairy farms and the ways this will eventually affect the aquifers that
are used to supply drinking water.
Water supply to the increasing numbers of dairy farms is also a major
problem, as one thousand litres of water are used to produce one litre of
milk.
(one pint is 600mililitres or .6 of a litre.)
Recreational fishermen and ecologists are concerned about the
disappearance
of fish from many streams and the water is unsafe even for cattle to
drink.
Regards
Bob Malone
On 10/22/07 6:07 AM, "wageslave_1999"
Post by wageslave_1999
This is a repeat of a post that I originally submitted in Feb. 2006.
entitled 'Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!' The reason for this re-
posting is that I was doing some further research on the subject of
industrialized agriculture. (I am currently reading Upton
Sinclair's 'The Jungle' whilst simultaneously reading 'The Omnivors
Dilema' by Michael Pollan.) As such I was revisiting my original post
to gather information (the table in the index)when it occured to me
that not one fellow socialist had replied to my original post.
It further occured to me that as current postings appear to be
somewhat long on 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' and
somewhat short on any substantive discourse( my subjective opinion-ha
ha ha)that I would recycle this post.
Anyhoo, I simply want to throw this back into the ring to see if
the underlying idea behind Pieter Lawrence's posting--finding
socialist solutions to capitalist problems without producing some
(dreaded) blueprint for future socialists to follow, would galvanize
socialists to both that idea as well as to emphasising our prime
objective: disseminating socialist ideas and making socialists.
here we go......
============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!
Pieter Lawrence, in his excellent post (29587) suggested that a
good way for socialists to educate the world about socialism would
be to demonstrate how much of a difference socialism could make to
present day society, rather than to simply speculate over some future
society.
". Positive, practical socialism should be the main content of our
case and without it our movement cannot expect to make progress.but
let me. giv(e) an example of the work that can be done. Probably
the worst problem suffered by humanity is poverty and malnutrition.
It's getting worse. In 1975 435 million people were seriously
undernourished. In 2000 this number had risen to 825 million.
The basis of food production is cereal production (and has been
since the agricultural revolution) We can say what is current world
cereal production. We can project a figure by which it should be
increased. We could propose the world organisation required to get
this done.."
As Pieter Lawrence suggested using agriculture as an example, I have
been researching world agricultural statistics using the United
Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation' s excellent statistical
data program `FAOSTAT'. This data base is astonishing in its size, as
it encompasses every nation and every crop produced on the planet.
With this data base you can determine almost any agricultural
statistic that you can conceive. I wanted to determine the
global production yield of selected major crops in comparison to the
area of land needed to grow 'feed' for agricultural herd animals.
My hypothesis is that we could eliminate human starvation by
replacing the amount of crop lands dedicated to growing feed for
livestock with land to grow food directly for human consumption.
Secondly, if this was possible, how much would we need to
reduce land used for animal `feed' in order to eradicate human
starvation.
Firstly I would like to point you to a chart that I have compiled of
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/WSM_ Forum/files/
scroll all the way to the end. (World Agricultureal Production)
I would also like to make the following caveats. I am not an
agricultural expert, so I am just putting this data out there for
future debate. I have a feeling that some of the data will be
incorrect for various reasons. The most obvious (to me) being that
the data for certain crops like sunflower seed cakes, and indeed
all `cake' crops, may well turn out to be simply by-products of
other crops e.g. sunflower oil. I am not sure of this, as I was
unable to find whether these two crops would constitute `double
accounting' where it comes to calculating total land area usage.
Col.1 is the name of the crop
Col.2 is the total metric tonnage produced in 2002.
Col.3 is the total metric tonnage of that crop produced specifically
for animal `feed'
Col. 4 is the percentage of feed produced per crop
Col. 5 is the total area of the crop
Col. 6 is area of each crop grown
The total at the bottom of col.5, (1,175,935,500 hectares)
represents 76.33 % of all arable land and land used for permanent
crops in 2002 (1,540,572,000 ha.)
As can be seen, there are a total of over 523 million hectares
of farm land devoted purely to growing animal food, or 44.49% of all
total farmland! Put another way, this is more than all the land used
to grow the entire worlds supply of the following crops: Wheat,
Barley, Corn (Maize), Soybeans, Oats and Potatoes!
Whilst I am not suggesting that socialism will mandate
vegetarianism, I am suggesting that socialism will be able to feed
all of humanity by simply decreasing our meat and dairy production.
If we were to cut land use for animal feed by 30 percent for
instance, we would be able to double world production of
corn and oats.
The beauty of this demonstration, as Pieter Lawrence stated, is
that this is not some utopian, futuristic ideal, but a concrete
example of how socialism would change things for the better in the
here and now should society be re-organised to reflect the emphasis
of human need as opposed to the bank accounts of a handfull of muli-
billionaires.
It is this that Mike Lepore stated that we should be
publicising to the media in order to promote socialism as a
practical alternative, and it is exactly this that I stated (in
concurrence) as a way of unifying the various factions within
socialism by means of emphasising the `macro-socialist' ideas as
opposed to squabbling over the `micro-socialist' details that
the neophyte is unable to understand.
Yours for Socialism;
Paul Azzario.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yahoo! Groups Links





____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor asador!
Aprende todo sobre asados.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorasador.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
trotfinder2007
2007-10-26 13:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi all

I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."

Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
Marcos Colome
2007-10-26 13:43:20 UTC
Permalink
It was the old conception of the leftist, specially the Maoists, that in
order to be a socialist-communist, you must be wearing sandals, almost
without any clothes, and living like a homeless. They turned socialism into
a religion, and any worker that was driving a car, or owns a house, was
called a petty bourgoise. The RCPUSA was able to recruit members from the
hippies movement
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-26 18:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Nice bit of objectification , im asking socialist if they will scrap their car and change their meat eating habits now, because its the right thing to do.


----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're crazies and dismiss this for eternity. Today most people are suffering from fetishism, people crave for social status, they desperately dress, they make-up, they buy, in order to appear as more afluent than they really are. I don't think we can come and ask them to ride a bike. We need to promote the reality of the socialist idea, which is that a Socialist society doesn't necesarily need to make these kind of sacrifices in order to be succesful but rather that it will be this kind of society that it's people will gradually make this consicious decisions by themselves. I truly believe that the people in a socialist society will be more likely to take this kind of decisions like being vegetarian or moving to a home close to work in order to ride a bike and waste less fuel, but I still believe that this kind of society will
never be obligated to this, they will still have the option of eating animal meat of riding cars.

A socialist society will empower people to take personal responsability, as opposed from today, that responsability needs to come from a politician's pen or from the market and translate that responsability into a household financial burden. like increasing fuel prices or food prices. While the masses make extreme sacrifices, the owners of the means of production get richier.

Tetraedrónico

----- Mensaje original ----
De: Nick Tapping <***@ntlworld.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 2:18:30
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

It is largely ignored that a vegetarian diet is ecoligically less harmfull
and needs a lot less space that a meat based diet, would it be anti
socialist to promote a vegetarian diet?

just as important with our love of traveling in our cars, which is a main
cause of enviromental degradation [not to mention negative health effects on
humans] , is putting the price of wheat up and will in the very near future
put up the price of all food, due to our growing need of bio-fuels.

perhaps most of our socalist comrades will wait till after the revolution to
abandon their car and meat diets to adopt a bicycle and a vegetarian diet?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcos Colome" <UPRalmamater@ gmail.com>
To: <***@yahoogrou ps.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

In some places, the farmers, they use salt and 'melasa", in order to
motivate the cows to drink more water everyday, every hour, and every
seconds. In Argentina and Brazil they have destroyed thousands of acres of
forest in order to plant soybeans for the Chinese, and the soybean is used
in order to feed the cows in China, by keeping them in small areas, which
will require large extension of lands. In many places on earth, cows are not
eating grass anymore.
Post by hud955
Hi Paul,
just recently there was an article in the North & South Magazine
(NZ) on the huge increase in the number of dairy farms in NZ.
Some of the statistics quoted support your concerns about the way food is
produced, and the way this affects the environment.
New Zealand has 5.2 million dairy cows producing 15 billion litres of milk
per year. The same article expresses concern about the pollution of many
waterways
By dairy farms and the ways this will eventually affect the aquifers that
are used to supply drinking water.
Water supply to the increasing numbers of dairy farms is also a major
problem, as one thousand litres of water are used to produce one litre of
milk.
(one pint is 600mililitres or .6 of a litre.)
Recreational fishermen and ecologists are concerned about the
disappearance
of fish from many streams and the water is unsafe even for cattle to
drink.
Regards
Bob Malone
On 10/22/07 6:07 AM, "wageslave_1999"
Post by wageslave_1999
This is a repeat of a post that I originally submitted in Feb. 2006.
entitled 'Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!' The reason for this re-
posting is that I was doing some further research on the subject of
industrialized agriculture. (I am currently reading Upton
Sinclair's 'The Jungle' whilst simultaneously reading 'The Omnivors
Dilema' by Michael Pollan.) As such I was revisiting my original post
to gather information (the table in the index)when it occured to me
that not one fellow socialist had replied to my original post.
It further occured to me that as current postings appear to be
somewhat long on 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' and
somewhat short on any substantive discourse( my subjective opinion-ha
ha ha)that I would recycle this post.
Anyhoo, I simply want to throw this back into the ring to see if
the underlying idea behind Pieter Lawrence's posting--finding
socialist solutions to capitalist problems without producing some
(dreaded) blueprint for future socialists to follow, would galvanize
socialists to both that idea as well as to emphasising our prime
objective: disseminating socialist ideas and making socialists.
here we go......
============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ==
Re: Socialists of the world, Unite!
Pieter Lawrence, in his excellent post (29587) suggested that a
good way for socialists to educate the world about socialism would
be to demonstrate how much of a difference socialism could make to
present day society, rather than to simply speculate over some future
society.
". Positive, practical socialism should be the main content of our
case and without it our movement cannot expect to make progress.but
let me. giv(e) an example of the work that can be done. Probably
the worst problem suffered by humanity is poverty and malnutrition.
It's getting worse. In 1975 435 million people were seriously
undernourished. In 2000 this number had risen to 825 million.
The basis of food production is cereal production (and has been
since the agricultural revolution) We can say what is current world
cereal production. We can project a figure by which it should be
increased. We could propose the world organisation required to get
this done.."
As Pieter Lawrence suggested using agriculture as an example, I have
been researching world agricultural statistics using the United
Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation' s excellent statistical
data program `FAOSTAT'. This data base is astonishing in its size, as
it encompasses every nation and every crop produced on the planet.
With this data base you can determine almost any agricultural
statistic that you can conceive. I wanted to determine the
global production yield of selected major crops in comparison to the
area of land needed to grow 'feed' for agricultural herd animals.
My hypothesis is that we could eliminate human starvation by
replacing the amount of crop lands dedicated to growing feed for
livestock with land to grow food directly for human consumption.
Secondly, if this was possible, how much would we need to
reduce land used for animal `feed' in order to eradicate human
starvation.
Firstly I would like to point you to a chart that I have compiled of
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/WSM_ Forum/files/
scroll all the way to the end. (World Agricultureal Production)
I would also like to make the following caveats. I am not an
agricultural expert, so I am just putting this data out there for
future debate. I have a feeling that some of the data will be
incorrect for various reasons. The most obvious (to me) being that
the data for certain crops like sunflower seed cakes, and indeed
all `cake' crops, may well turn out to be simply by-products of
other crops e.g. sunflower oil. I am not sure of this, as I was
unable to find whether these two crops would constitute `double
accounting' where it comes to calculating total land area usage.
Col.1 is the name of the crop
Col.2 is the total metric tonnage produced in 2002.
Col.3 is the total metric tonnage of that crop produced specifically
for animal `feed'
Col. 4 is the percentage of feed produced per crop
Col. 5 is the total area of the crop
Col. 6 is area of each crop grown
The total at the bottom of col.5, (1,175,935,500 hectares)
represents 76.33 % of all arable land and land used for permanent
crops in 2002 (1,540,572,000 ha.)
As can be seen, there are a total of over 523 million hectares
of farm land devoted purely to growing animal food, or 44.49% of all
total farmland! Put another way, this is more than all the land used
to grow the entire worlds supply of the following crops: Wheat,
Barley, Corn (Maize), Soybeans, Oats and Potatoes!
Whilst I am not suggesting that socialism will mandate
vegetarianism, I am suggesting that socialism will be able to feed
all of humanity by simply decreasing our meat and dairy production.
If we were to cut land use for animal feed by 30 percent for
instance, we would be able to double world production of
corn and oats.
The beauty of this demonstration, as Pieter Lawrence stated, is
that this is not some utopian, futuristic ideal, but a concrete
example of how socialism would change things for the better in the
here and now should society be re-organised to reflect the emphasis
of human need as opposed to the bank accounts of a handfull of muli-
billionaires.
It is this that Mike Lepore stated that we should be
publicising to the media in order to promote socialism as a
practical alternative, and it is exactly this that I stated (in
concurrence) as a way of unifying the various factions within
socialism by means of emphasising the `macro-socialist' ideas as
opposed to squabbling over the `micro-socialist' details that
the neophyte is unable to understand.
Yours for Socialism;
Paul Azzario.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yahoo! Groups Links

__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor asador!
Aprende todo sobre asados.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorasador.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 13:27:40 UTC
Permalink
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist society will be one where people have to share everything including their tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they have to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We need to demistify that notion.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: trotfinder2007 <***@yahoo.co.uk>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Hi all

I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."

Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorfotografo.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-26 13:40:52 UTC
Permalink
That idea has been spread by the leftist, and specially the Maoists, the
Castrists, and the follower of the ideas of Che Guevara, and now with the
insertion of Jesuschrist by the apologist of the socialism of the XXI
century, it is getting worst, pretty soon I will see them carrying a Bible
instead of the Communist manifest, when they are spreading the idea that
Jesus was the first communists. That idea has only be successful in the
minds of the people that do not know the real meaning of socialism, even
Stalin did the same in the past, when he was elevated to the category of
being a saint,
Post by tetraedronico
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist
society will be one where people have to share everything including their
tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they have
to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We need to
demistify that notion.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorfotografo.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-26 18:14:43 UTC
Permalink
yeah, I was talking to a green representative about the future , he saw us as scrapping the car and replacing it with individual flying machines.
Lets get real, for the whole world to enjoy the opulance of the english lower middle classes we would need a much, much smaller populace than we have now. our eco system just cant handle it.
Anyway , its a bourguios philosophy that human satisfaction comes from material wealth, the idea that happiness , contentment and richness of human experience comes from things outside of ourselves is a result of objectivity.
One myth we need to smash is that human betterment comes from the accumalation of material wealth.
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist society will be one where people have to share everything including their tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they have to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We need to demistify that notion.

Tetraedrónico

----- Mensaje original ----
De: trotfinder2007 <***@yahoo.co.uk>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Hi all

I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."

Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorfotografo.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
balmer_dave
2007-10-26 19:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi Nick

I myself actually have some sympathy for this kind of Rousseau type
idea.

I am beginning to suspect you of being some kind of philosophical
agent provocateur.


However there is nothing objective in our present consumerist
society that;

"contentment and richness of human experience comes from things
outside of ourselves"

I think the advertising industry would be quite insulted at you
suggesting such a thing.
Post by Nick Tapping
yeah, I was talking to a green representative about the future ,
he saw us as scrapping the car and replacing it with individual
flying machines.
Post by Nick Tapping
Lets get real, for the whole world to enjoy the opulance of the
english lower middle classes we would need a much, much smaller
populace than we have now. our eco system just cant handle it.
Post by Nick Tapping
Anyway , its a bourguios philosophy that human satisfaction comes
from material wealth, the idea that happiness , contentment and
richness of human experience comes from things outside of ourselves
is a result of objectivity.
Post by Nick Tapping
One myth we need to smash is that human betterment comes from the
accumalation of material wealth.
Post by Nick Tapping
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a
socialist society will be one where people have to share everything
including their tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very
poor and that they have to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes
or being vegetarians. We need to demistify that notion.
Post by Nick Tapping
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by
promoting
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorfotografo.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-27 05:55:05 UTC
Permalink
As I said before Dave , Objectivity is a falsehood, its just a way of looking at things and even a subject cannot look at another subject truely objectivily. [its a contradiction in terms]
So why the hell do we train all individuals from a small age to look at reality / life, the world objectivly................... talking about false realities!
----- Original Message -----
From: balmer_dave
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:02 PM
Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


Hi Nick

I myself actually have some sympathy for this kind of Rousseau type
idea.

I am beginning to suspect you of being some kind of philosophical
agent provocateur.

However there is nothing objective in our present consumerist
society that;

"contentment and richness of human experience comes from things
outside of ourselves"

I think the advertising industry would be quite insulted at you
suggesting such a thing.
Post by Nick Tapping
yeah, I was talking to a green representative about the future ,
he saw us as scrapping the car and replacing it with individual
flying machines.
Post by Nick Tapping
Lets get real, for the whole world to enjoy the opulance of the
english lower middle classes we would need a much, much smaller
populace than we have now. our eco system just cant handle it.
Post by Nick Tapping
Anyway , its a bourguios philosophy that human satisfaction comes
from material wealth, the idea that happiness , contentment and
richness of human experience comes from things outside of ourselves
is a result of objectivity.
Post by Nick Tapping
One myth we need to smash is that human betterment comes from the
accumalation of material wealth.
Post by Nick Tapping
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a
socialist society will be one where people have to share everything
including their tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very
poor and that they have to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes
or being vegetarians. We need to demistify that notion.
Post by Nick Tapping
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by
promoting
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say
we're
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorfotografo.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 14:01:27 UTC
Permalink
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not taking personal responsability and they're waiting their leaders to resolve the problem. I think they expect that the politicians can resolve the problem by doing something that hurts the pockets of the people that waste enery, the so called carbon footprint, but this issue would be much different if there were no leaders and people have to take the responsability by themselves. I for myself I know I can take this responsability but can I say the same for the rest of millions of people? I know it's not impossible though.

Regards.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Marcos Colome <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:40:52
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

That idea has been spread by the leftist, and specially the Maoists, the
Castrists, and the follower of the ideas of Che Guevara, and now with the
insertion of Jesuschrist by the apologist of the socialism of the XXI
century, it is getting worst, pretty soon I will see them carrying a Bible
instead of the Communist manifest, when they are spreading the idea that
Jesus was the first communists. That idea has only be successful in the
minds of the people that do not know the real meaning of socialism, even
Stalin did the same in the past, when he was elevated to the category of
being a saint,
Post by tetraedronico
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist
society will be one where people have to share everything including their
tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they have
to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We need to
demistify that notion.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorfotografo. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
balmer_dave
2007-10-26 17:20:34 UTC
Permalink
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.

Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.

It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or suffer any
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't exactly
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class Guardian
reading liberals, like George Orwell.

Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original thinker I
suppose.

Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.

We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and choose
the one with the maximum overall utility.

Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I suppose
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that as
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their leaders to
_____________________________________________________________________
_______________
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 17:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better now that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and that they don't need leaders to do this.

By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste company do this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this company is not encouraging to take personal responsability regardin g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly falls into our pockets at a greater price.

Regards.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: balmer_dave <***@yahoo.co.uk>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.

Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.

It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or suffer any
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't exactly
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class Guardian
reading liberals, like George Orwell.

Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original thinker I
suppose.

Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.

We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and choose
the one with the maximum overall utility.

Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I suppose
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that as
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their leaders to
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 18:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be beneficial to the society.
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only make capitalism successful. we will keep making this sacrifices while the owners of the means of production and distribution are filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought about this Dave, what do you think?

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: tetraedronico <***@yahoo.com.mx>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better now that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and that they don't need leaders to do this.

By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste company do this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this company is not encouraging to take personal responsability regardin g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly falls into our pockets at a greater price.

Regards.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: balmer_dave <***@yahoo.co.uk>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.

Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.

It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or suffer any
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't exactly
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class Guardian
reading liberals, like George Orwell.

Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original thinker I
suppose.

Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.

We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and choose
the one with the maximum overall utility.

Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I suppose
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that as
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their leaders to
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos en:
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html


____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
balmer_dave
2007-10-26 18:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Yes, I have actually.

I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to my
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.

Although I don't have much of a choice about that.

Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour that
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our rubbish,
could be seen as surplus labour.

The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this sacrifices
while the owners of the means of production and distribution are
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought about
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better now
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves
that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste company do
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability regardin
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or suffer any
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't exactly
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class Guardian
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original thinker I
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I suppose
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that as
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their leaders to
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html
_____________________________________________________________________
_______________
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-26 19:09:55 UTC
Permalink
We all know that capitalism has been in power for a longer period of time,
because the workers have also given their support to capitalism, otherwise
It could be overthrown right away. I know that in this forum we are not all
socialists, or members of the SPGB/.WSM, but, sometimes we forget about
something very important, which is the class struggles, capitalists are
going to oppose and give resistance for a new society, and for us to get
organized, probably we are going to be forced to use certain violence in
order to keep our post, and probably they are going to be moment that we are
going to hold a rifle in order to defend a new society, or to oppose them.,
or probably they could have on their favor certain minority size of the
working class, It is not so easy to build a new society, I have seen too
many dreamers being killed
Post by balmer_dave
Yes, I have actually.
I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to my
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.
Although I don't have much of a choice about that.
Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour that
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our rubbish,
could be seen as surplus labour.
The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this sacrifices
while the owners of the means of production and distribution are
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought about
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better now
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves
that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste company do
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability regardin
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
Post by tetraedronico
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or suffer
any
Post by tetraedronico
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't exactly
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class Guardian
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original thinker I
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I suppose
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that
as
Post by tetraedronico
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their leaders
to
Post by tetraedronico
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡SÃ(c) un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html
__________________________________________________________
_______________
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-27 06:01:07 UTC
Permalink
In many ways we can blame Marx for actually warning the capitalist with his forcast of socialism.
The capitalist is very shrewd and its the fear of socialism that has encouraged them to open up the stock exchange and give workers [in the west] a much higher wage. While our workers are sedated with unnessersary wealth they wont be any imputus to rebel. after all they have as much as they want.
nick
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcos Colome
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


We all know that capitalism has been in power for a longer period of time,
because the workers have also given their support to capitalism, otherwise
It could be overthrown right away. I know that in this forum we are not all
socialists, or members of the SPGB/.WSM, but, sometimes we forget about
something very important, which is the class struggles, capitalists are
going to oppose and give resistance for a new society, and for us to get
organized, probably we are going to be forced to use certain violence in
order to keep our post, and probably they are going to be moment that we are
going to hold a rifle in order to defend a new society, or to oppose them.,
or probably they could have on their favor certain minority size of the
working class, It is not so easy to build a new society, I have seen too
many dreamers being killed
Post by balmer_dave
Yes, I have actually.
I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to my
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.
Although I don't have much of a choice about that.
Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour that
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our rubbish,
could be seen as surplus labour.
The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this sacrifices
while the owners of the means of production and distribution are
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought about
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better now
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves
that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste company do
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability regardin
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
Post by tetraedronico
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or suffer
any
Post by tetraedronico
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't exactly
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class Guardian
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original thinker I
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I suppose
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that
as
Post by tetraedronico
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their leaders
to
Post by tetraedronico
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡SÃ(c) un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html
__________________________________________________________
_______________
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 19:02:15 UTC
Permalink
I may agree with your notition that wealth doesn't bring hapiness but many people won't agree, the important thing is Choice, people in Africa and other marginal areas around the world don't have other choice than living in missery. The key is that a socialist society can give you the choice of being as oppulent as your society really wants given the amount of work and resources that you want to invest in satisfying your craving for oppulence, this will be a free market of living standards. I can imagine a world were some places people are going to work more and live better and some other places where people work much less but may only have basic commodities, but they have the choice of moving wherever they please, they will not be imprisoned to the piece of desertic land they were born in.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Nick Tapping <***@ntlworld.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:14:43
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

yeah, I was talking to a green representative about the future , he saw us as scrapping the car and replacing it with individual flying machines.
Lets get real, for the whole world to enjoy the opulance of the english lower middle classes we would need a much, much smaller populace than we have now. our eco system just cant handle it.
Anyway , its a bourguios philosophy that human satisfaction comes from material wealth, the idea that happiness , contentment and richness of human experience comes from things outside of ourselves is a result of objectivity.
One myth we need to smash is that human betterment comes from the accumalation of material wealth.
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist society will be one where people have to share everything including their tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they have to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We need to demistify that notion.

Tetraedrónico

----- Mensaje original ----
De: trotfinder2007 <trotfinder2007@ yahoo.co. uk>
Para: ***@yahoogrou ps.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Hi all

I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."

Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorfotografo. html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-26 19:15:01 UTC
Permalink
That is the reason why we have said, that socialism can not be built without
the desires of the majority of the working class of the world, and also the
bourgeois ideology has affected the minds of the workers and the human being
all over the earth. Socialism is the elimination of commodities, and the
elimination fo capitalist mareket, commodities is the heart of the
capitalist society, the purpose of socialism is put in practice the
principle of each acording to their needs .........
Post by tetraedronico
I may agree with your notition that wealth doesn't bring hapiness but
many people won't agree, the important thing is Choice, people in Africa and
other marginal areas around the world don't have other choice than living in
missery. The key is that a socialist society can give you the choice of
being as oppulent as your society really wants given the amount of work and
resources that you want to invest in satisfying your craving for oppulence,
this will be a free market of living standards. I can imagine a world were
some places people are going to work more and live better and some other
places where people work much less but may only have basic commodities, but
they have the choice of moving wherever they please, they will not be
imprisoned to the piece of desertic land they were born in.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:14:43
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
yeah, I was talking to a green representative about the future , he saw us
as scrapping the car and replacing it with individual flying machines.
Lets get real, for the whole world to enjoy the opulance of the english
lower middle classes we would need a much, much smaller populace than we
have now. our eco system just cant handle it.
Anyway , its a bourguios philosophy that human satisfaction comes from
material wealth, the idea that happiness , contentment and richness of human
experience comes from things outside of ourselves is a result of
objectivity.
One myth we need to smash is that human betterment comes from the
accumalation of material wealth.
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist
society will be one where people have to share everything including their
tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they have
to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We need to
demistify that notion.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorfotografo. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 19:26:48 UTC
Permalink
Dave,
So bottom line, do you think that volunterism and good will in our capitalist society is doing more good? or do you think that this is only helping make the capitalism a success and pushing a socialist revolution out of the way.
In your case I think you don't care helping capitalism by sepparating the recyclable garbage..
to what extend should we be willing to volunteer ourselves in a capitalist society, having our socialist revolution in mind, is it good, is it bad.. appreciate your input.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: balmer_dave <***@yahoo.co.uk>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:38:44
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Yes, I have actually.

I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to my
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.

Although I don't have much of a choice about that.

Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour that
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our rubbish,
could be seen as surplus labour.

The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this sacrifices
while the owners of the means of production and distribution are
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought about
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better now
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves
that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste company do
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability regardin
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
Post by tetraedronico
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or suffer
any
Post by tetraedronico
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't exactly
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class Guardian
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original thinker I
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I suppose
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that
as
Post by tetraedronico
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their leaders
to
Post by tetraedronico
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-27 06:05:41 UTC
Permalink
the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any capitalist [work for the public service or go self employed], scamm any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity game, Buy as least as possible. live and give as least as possible to the system.
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


Dave,
So bottom line, do you think that volunterism and good will in our capitalist society is doing more good? or do you think that this is only helping make the capitalism a success and pushing a socialist revolution out of the way.
In your case I think you don't care helping capitalism by sepparating the recyclable garbage..
to what extend should we be willing to volunteer ourselves in a capitalist society, having our socialist revolution in mind, is it good, is it bad.. appreciate your input.

Tetraedrónico

----- Mensaje original ----
De: balmer_dave <***@yahoo.co.uk>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:38:44
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Yes, I have actually.

I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to my
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.

Although I don't have much of a choice about that.

Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour that
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our rubbish,
could be seen as surplus labour.

The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this sacrifices
while the owners of the means of production and distribution are
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought about
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better now
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves
that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste company do
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability regardin
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or suffer
any
Post by tetraedronico
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't exactly
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class Guardian
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original thinker I
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I suppose
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that
as
Post by tetraedronico
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their leaders
to
Post by tetraedronico
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
robbo203
2007-10-27 07:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Well said Nick. And in helping each other through the non-market
sector today - the so called grey economy - we set an example of
volunteerism which will help to make the political objective of a
future volunteristic socialist society seem much more credible and
achievable

Robin
Post by Nick Tapping
the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any capitalist
[work for the public service or go self employed], scamm any money
you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity game, Buy as least
as possible. live and give as least as possible to the system.
Post by Nick Tapping
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Dave,
So bottom line, do you think that volunterism and good will in
our capitalist society is doing more good? or do you think that this
is only helping make the capitalism a success and pushing a
socialist revolution out of the way.
Post by Nick Tapping
In your case I think you don't care helping capitalism by
sepparating the recyclable garbage..
Post by Nick Tapping
to what extend should we be willing to volunteer ourselves in a
capitalist society, having our socialist revolution in mind, is it
good, is it bad.. appreciate your input.
Post by Nick Tapping
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:38:44
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Yes, I have actually.
I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to my
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.
Although I don't have much of a choice about that.
Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour that
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our
rubbish,
Post by Nick Tapping
could be seen as surplus labour.
The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this sacrifices
while the owners of the means of production and distribution are
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought about
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better now
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves
that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste
company do
Post by Nick Tapping
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability
regardin
Post by Nick Tapping
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist
Post by Nick Tapping
problems.
Post by tetraedronico
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or
suffer
Post by Nick Tapping
any
Post by tetraedronico
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't
exactly
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class
Guardian
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original
thinker I
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I
suppose
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that
as
Post by tetraedronico
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their
leaders
Post by Nick Tapping
to
Post by tetraedronico
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡SÃÆ'© un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
trotfinder2007
2007-10-27 09:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi all

as the saying goes: there is so much wrong with this it's hard to
know where to start! (Doesn't surprise me this twaddle gets Robbo's
enthusiastic support.)

Nick Tapping: "the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any
capitalist [work for the public service or go self employed], scamm
any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity game, Buy
as least as possible. live and give as least as possible to the
system."

This is a blueprint for "dropping out" and as serious a suggestion
for social change as growing spuds for revolution. (Or the even
whackier 1960s classic "Eat Brown Rice and Make the Revolution", a
title of a book which urged the cadre to have a brown rice diet to
purge their bodies of toxins in order to be better
revolutionaries!!!)

It is an individualist, hollow echo of protest. "The system" (by
which Nick probably means the capitalist mode of production and
social relationships) is very well equipped to deal with the H.D.
Thoreaus of this world, not least because of the massive inequality
in land ownership per definition due to capitalists' ownership of
the means of living.

Scam money? What is that supposed to mean? Anyway, the forces of the
state exist to lock up scammers.

What is working for "the public service" if not working for the
National Capitalist, the State? And self-employment? Well, there are
lots who do (e.g. my brother in law is a plumber) - and you would be
in competition with them - but on the whole the idea that a wheel
can be turned backwards and the working class can become artisans
again is cloud cuckoo land.

And Nick's contribution ends in some sort of ascetic, amish, puritan
call. What is "buying too much"?

I am sick to the back teeth of the life-style "revolutionaries". I
swear they don't have a chica and some bairnes to think about. And I
want my electronic gadgets. I gain enormous pleasure from astronomy
because of them; a joy and gadgetry I have used countless times to
teach others about the night sky. My latest gadget is an all in one
printer/scanner/fax and photo developer. I am using that to put
articles of the Socialist Standard online.

I also note that the life-stylers (Nick, Robbo, Michael Lewis, etc)
have a patronising view of what others actually DO. I don't drive
and have no wish to; I have an allotment; I buy alot second hand
stuff; etc.

Graham
Nick Tapping
2007-10-27 10:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Just as sick you may be about people like us, i assure we are just as sick as people like you, who willingly grease the wheels of capitalism becaue of your love of its commoditys. You know that the system has blood, inequality, on its hands, destroys lives, communities and the environment , but you are still willing to give it your physical support because you like your gadgets.
Its definetly what i would call an objective socialist. I believe in socialism and capitalim is a no- no but we should grease the wheels of capitalism because its giving us some good gadgets.
go suck up a lollipop.
nick
----- Original Message -----
From: trotfinder2007
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 10:11 AM
Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


Hi all

as the saying goes: there is so much wrong with this it's hard to
know where to start! (Doesn't surprise me this twaddle gets Robbo's
enthusiastic support.)

Nick Tapping: "the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any
capitalist [work for the public service or go self employed], scamm
any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity game, Buy
as least as possible. live and give as least as possible to the
system."

This is a blueprint for "dropping out" and as serious a suggestion
for social change as growing spuds for revolution. (Or the even
whackier 1960s classic "Eat Brown Rice and Make the Revolution", a
title of a book which urged the cadre to have a brown rice diet to
purge their bodies of toxins in order to be better
revolutionaries!!!)

It is an individualist, hollow echo of protest. "The system" (by
which Nick probably means the capitalist mode of production and
social relationships) is very well equipped to deal with the H.D.
Thoreaus of this world, not least because of the massive inequality
in land ownership per definition due to capitalists' ownership of
the means of living.

Scam money? What is that supposed to mean? Anyway, the forces of the
state exist to lock up scammers.

What is working for "the public service" if not working for the
National Capitalist, the State? And self-employment? Well, there are
lots who do (e.g. my brother in law is a plumber) - and you would be
in competition with them - but on the whole the idea that a wheel
can be turned backwards and the working class can become artisans
again is cloud cuckoo land.

And Nick's contribution ends in some sort of ascetic, amish, puritan
call. What is "buying too much"?

I am sick to the back teeth of the life-style "revolutionaries". I
swear they don't have a chica and some bairnes to think about. And I
want my electronic gadgets. I gain enormous pleasure from astronomy
because of them; a joy and gadgetry I have used countless times to
teach others about the night sky. My latest gadget is an all in one
printer/scanner/fax and photo developer. I am using that to put
articles of the Socialist Standard online.

I also note that the life-stylers (Nick, Robbo, Michael Lewis, etc)
have a patronising view of what others actually DO. I don't drive
and have no wish to; I have an allotment; I buy alot second hand
stuff; etc.

Graham





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
trotfinder2007
2007-10-27 10:55:42 UTC
Permalink
My family like eating food. I grow some, otherwise I must buy stuff at
a shop.

Gadgets or beans differ physically and in use, they are both
commodities. I grease the wheels of capitalism when I buy food or a
printer.

Graham
Post by Nick Tapping
Just as sick you may be about people like us, i assure we are just
as sick as people like you, who willingly grease the wheels of
capitalism becaue of your love of its commoditys.
Marcos Colome
2007-10-30 16:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Capitalism has last for a longer period of times, because workers have been
supporting it, and we have been placing our own rulers and dictators on
powers, if we all decide to overthrow capital, it will only last a few
minutes, hours, or days, in control of the society, although a general
strike it will not overthrow capital, we must take over and collectivize
all the means of productions and send all of them to hell, and their
apparatus of oppression to the trash can. We will stop greasing the wheels
of capital only through a social revolution and confronting the class
struggle, this is not child play , and many people are scare of the class
struggle, specially the ones that have petty bourgeois mentalities, it can
not be resolved with Christmas songs, charities, watching TV, and with
religious ideas
As for "greasing the wheels of capitalism," I wonder if our our [U.S.]
Civil War slaves were greasing the wheels of chattel slavery when they were
picking cotton?
Byron
----- Original Message -----
From: trotfinder2007
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 4:55 AM
Subject: [SPAM][WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
My family like eating food. I grow some, otherwise I must buy stuff at
a shop.
Gadgets or beans differ physically and in use, they are both
commodities. I grease the wheels of capitalism when I buy food or a
printer.
Graham
Post by Nick Tapping
Just as sick you may be about people like us, i assure we are just
as sick as people like you, who willingly grease the wheels of
capitalism becaue of your love of its commoditys.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bddanel
2007-10-30 13:26:25 UTC
Permalink
As for "greasing the wheels of capitalism," I wonder if our our [U.S.] Civil War slaves were greasing the wheels of chattel slavery when they were picking cotton?

Byron

----- Original Message -----
From: trotfinder2007
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 4:55 AM
Subject: [SPAM][WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


My family like eating food. I grow some, otherwise I must buy stuff at
a shop.

Gadgets or beans differ physically and in use, they are both
commodities. I grease the wheels of capitalism when I buy food or a
printer.

Graham
Post by Nick Tapping
Just as sick you may be about people like us, i assure we are just
as sick as people like you, who willingly grease the wheels of
capitalism becaue of your love of its commoditys.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
robbo203
2007-10-27 11:43:27 UTC
Permalink
I see Trotfinder is at it again - peddling his simplistic black or
white view of the world while verbally abusing others who not see
eye to eye with him on every point(still havent gone along to those
anger management classes,eh?) For the record , I think Nick makes
some good points but that deosnt mean I renounce the need for
socialist political action as well. When is the penny going to drop

Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
as the saying goes: there is so much wrong with this it's hard to
know where to start! (Doesn't surprise me this twaddle gets
Robbo's
Post by trotfinder2007
enthusiastic support.)
Nick Tapping: "the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any
capitalist [work for the public service or go self employed],
scamm
Post by trotfinder2007
any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity game, Buy
as least as possible. live and give as least as possible to the
system."
This is a blueprint for "dropping out" and as serious a suggestion
for social change as growing spuds for revolution. (Or the even
whackier 1960s classic "Eat Brown Rice and Make the Revolution", a
title of a book which urged the cadre to have a brown rice diet to
purge their bodies of toxins in order to be better
revolutionaries!!!)
It is an individualist, hollow echo of protest. "The system" (by
which Nick probably means the capitalist mode of production and
social relationships) is very well equipped to deal with the H.D.
Thoreaus of this world, not least because of the massive
inequality
Post by trotfinder2007
in land ownership per definition due to capitalists' ownership of
the means of living.
Scam money? What is that supposed to mean? Anyway, the forces of the
state exist to lock up scammers.
What is working for "the public service" if not working for the
National Capitalist, the State? And self-employment? Well, there are
lots who do (e.g. my brother in law is a plumber) - and you would be
in competition with them - but on the whole the idea that a wheel
can be turned backwards and the working class can become artisans
again is cloud cuckoo land.
And Nick's contribution ends in some sort of ascetic, amish,
puritan
Post by trotfinder2007
call. What is "buying too much"?
I am sick to the back teeth of the life-style "revolutionaries". I
swear they don't have a chica and some bairnes to think about. And I
want my electronic gadgets. I gain enormous pleasure from
astronomy
Post by trotfinder2007
because of them; a joy and gadgetry I have used countless times to
teach others about the night sky. My latest gadget is an all in one
printer/scanner/fax and photo developer. I am using that to put
articles of the Socialist Standard online.
I also note that the life-stylers (Nick, Robbo, Michael Lewis,
etc)
Post by trotfinder2007
have a patronising view of what others actually DO. I don't drive
and have no wish to; I have an allotment; I buy alot second hand
stuff; etc.
Graham
trotfinder2007
2007-10-27 12:04:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi all

aaaaaaaah. Oh dear, found out again! I have SUCH a black and white
view of society. Yeah right.

Robbo and partner are in their otium in Spain. Will he or partner
explain how they got the means and papers to live in Spain? I will
not accept: it just happened or something like that doesn't involve
a long working life, savings, the children have moved out and are on
their own feet and no longer need to be provided for, pensions
and/or a bank loan.

It's not anger Robbo, you tit. It's calling you an arrogant little
shit; just like I called Michael Lewis a cunt because his view of a
future world needed 5.5 billion people to die.

You are arrogant to the extreme if you think socialists, and non-
socialists too, don't do non-monetary things or think about how
their consumption and habits might damage the environment.

Robbo pisses me off because he is doing something a single mother in
a sink estate is in no position to do. The fifth floor lass in a
tower block, who buys fast food and all that must repulse such a
saved (and Spanish suntanned wanker) like you, eh?

I once had respect for you. Not any more. Your sneering at the
socialists and the working class is obvious for all to see.

Go grow the patotoes, along with that dappy World In Common bunch

Graham
Post by robbo203
I see Trotfinder is at it again - peddling his simplistic black or
white view of the world while verbally abusing others who not see
eye to eye with him on every point(still havent gone along to
those
Post by robbo203
anger management classes,eh?) For the record , I think Nick makes
some good points but that deosnt mean I renounce the need for
socialist political action as well. When is the penny going to drop
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
as the saying goes: there is so much wrong with this it's hard to
know where to start! (Doesn't surprise me this twaddle gets
Robbo's
Post by trotfinder2007
enthusiastic support.)
Nick Tapping: "the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any
capitalist [work for the public service or go self employed],
scamm
Post by trotfinder2007
any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity game,
Buy
Post by trotfinder2007
as least as possible. live and give as least as possible to the
system."
This is a blueprint for "dropping out" and as serious a
suggestion
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
for social change as growing spuds for revolution. (Or the even
whackier 1960s classic "Eat Brown Rice and Make the Revolution", a
title of a book which urged the cadre to have a brown rice diet to
purge their bodies of toxins in order to be better
revolutionaries!!!)
It is an individualist, hollow echo of protest. "The system" (by
which Nick probably means the capitalist mode of production and
social relationships) is very well equipped to deal with the
H.D.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Thoreaus of this world, not least because of the massive
inequality
Post by trotfinder2007
in land ownership per definition due to capitalists' ownership of
the means of living.
Scam money? What is that supposed to mean? Anyway, the forces of
the
Post by trotfinder2007
state exist to lock up scammers.
What is working for "the public service" if not working for the
National Capitalist, the State? And self-employment? Well, there
are
Post by trotfinder2007
lots who do (e.g. my brother in law is a plumber) - and you
would
Post by robbo203
be
Post by trotfinder2007
in competition with them - but on the whole the idea that a
wheel
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
can be turned backwards and the working class can become
artisans
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
again is cloud cuckoo land.
And Nick's contribution ends in some sort of ascetic, amish,
puritan
Post by trotfinder2007
call. What is "buying too much"?
I am sick to the back teeth of the life-style "revolutionaries". I
swear they don't have a chica and some bairnes to think about.
And
Post by robbo203
I
Post by trotfinder2007
want my electronic gadgets. I gain enormous pleasure from
astronomy
Post by trotfinder2007
because of them; a joy and gadgetry I have used countless times to
teach others about the night sky. My latest gadget is an all in
one
Post by trotfinder2007
printer/scanner/fax and photo developer. I am using that to put
articles of the Socialist Standard online.
I also note that the life-stylers (Nick, Robbo, Michael Lewis,
etc)
Post by trotfinder2007
have a patronising view of what others actually DO. I don't
drive
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
and have no wish to; I have an allotment; I buy alot second hand
stuff; etc.
Graham
robbo203
2007-10-27 12:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Lets get something straight, Trotfinder. I dont assume socialists
or non-socialists dont do non-monetary things. On the contrary. And
I am saying something more - that it is good that they do that and
that there is useful synergy between such activities and socialist
political action. Nor do you have to preach to me about the
inevitability of having to engage with the money system while we
have capitalism. I am well aware of that , thank you very much

What I object to very much is that you should find cause to fly off
the handle everytime I state an opinion. You should really start
growing up. I am getting sick and tired of this puerile behaviour
and I suggest the moderator of this forum might want to intervene
atthis juncture. Is it really acceptable to going round calling
people cunts and shits. And you call yourself a socialist? Its
downright pathetic. This is the politics of kindergarten. It has no
place in a serious socialistdiscussion forum

Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
aaaaaaaah. Oh dear, found out again! I have SUCH a black and white
view of society. Yeah right.
Robbo and partner are in their otium in Spain. Will he or partner
explain how they got the means and papers to live in Spain? I will
not accept: it just happened or something like that doesn't
involve
Post by trotfinder2007
a long working life, savings, the children have moved out and are on
their own feet and no longer need to be provided for, pensions
and/or a bank loan.
It's not anger Robbo, you tit. It's calling you an arrogant little
shit; just like I called Michael Lewis a cunt because his view of a
future world needed 5.5 billion people to die.
You are arrogant to the extreme if you think socialists, and non-
socialists too, don't do non-monetary things or think about how
their consumption and habits might damage the environment.
Robbo pisses me off because he is doing something a single mother in
a sink estate is in no position to do. The fifth floor lass in a
tower block, who buys fast food and all that must repulse such a
saved (and Spanish suntanned wanker) like you, eh?
I once had respect for you. Not any more. Your sneering at the
socialists and the working class is obvious for all to see.
Go grow the patotoes, along with that dappy World In Common bunch
Graham
Post by robbo203
I see Trotfinder is at it again - peddling his simplistic black or
white view of the world while verbally abusing others who not see
eye to eye with him on every point(still havent gone along to
those
Post by robbo203
anger management classes,eh?) For the record , I think Nick
makes
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
some good points but that deosnt mean I renounce the need for
socialist political action as well. When is the penny going to
drop
Post by robbo203
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
as the saying goes: there is so much wrong with this it's hard
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
know where to start! (Doesn't surprise me this twaddle gets
Robbo's
Post by trotfinder2007
enthusiastic support.)
Nick Tapping: "the best we can do is withdraw our labour from
any
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
capitalist [work for the public service or go self employed],
scamm
Post by trotfinder2007
any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity
game,
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Buy
Post by trotfinder2007
as least as possible. live and give as least as possible to the
system."
This is a blueprint for "dropping out" and as serious a
suggestion
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
for social change as growing spuds for revolution. (Or the
even
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
whackier 1960s classic "Eat Brown Rice and Make the
Revolution",
Post by trotfinder2007
a
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
title of a book which urged the cadre to have a brown rice
diet
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
purge their bodies of toxins in order to be better
revolutionaries!!!)
It is an individualist, hollow echo of protest. "The system" (by
which Nick probably means the capitalist mode of production and
social relationships) is very well equipped to deal with the
H.D.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Thoreaus of this world, not least because of the massive
inequality
Post by trotfinder2007
in land ownership per definition due to capitalists' ownership
of
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
the means of living.
Scam money? What is that supposed to mean? Anyway, the forces of
the
Post by trotfinder2007
state exist to lock up scammers.
What is working for "the public service" if not working for the
National Capitalist, the State? And self-employment? Well,
there
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
are
Post by trotfinder2007
lots who do (e.g. my brother in law is a plumber) - and you
would
Post by robbo203
be
Post by trotfinder2007
in competition with them - but on the whole the idea that a
wheel
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
can be turned backwards and the working class can become
artisans
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
again is cloud cuckoo land.
And Nick's contribution ends in some sort of ascetic, amish,
puritan
Post by trotfinder2007
call. What is "buying too much"?
I am sick to the back teeth of the life-
style "revolutionaries".
Post by trotfinder2007
I
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
swear they don't have a chica and some bairnes to think about.
And
Post by robbo203
I
Post by trotfinder2007
want my electronic gadgets. I gain enormous pleasure from
astronomy
Post by trotfinder2007
because of them; a joy and gadgetry I have used countless
times
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
teach others about the night sky. My latest gadget is an all in
one
Post by trotfinder2007
printer/scanner/fax and photo developer. I am using that to put
articles of the Socialist Standard online.
I also note that the life-stylers (Nick, Robbo, Michael Lewis,
etc)
Post by trotfinder2007
have a patronising view of what others actually DO. I don't
drive
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
and have no wish to; I have an allotment; I buy alot second hand
stuff; etc.
Graham
trotfinder2007
2007-10-27 13:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Robbo

bad language for you appears to be proscribed words. Might I suggest
you think about your "courteous", "good English".

You have time and again painted the socialists as all sorts of things,
all in impeccable language.

Don't think that hides your anti-SPGB agenda.

an old saying is: Feaces and shit mean the same thing. You can tell
the shits, though, from the decent folk over which word offends them

Graham
trotfinder2007
2007-10-27 13:19:11 UTC
Permalink
PS

I knew that you are a cry baby. lol

God forbid someone call your arrogance. Lucky you I am an uncouth
member of the class you wish to liberate, by showing me how to grow
spuds or drop out of society.

Oh grow up Robin. Your life-stylism is perhaps something well
endowed pensioners like you can do. Forme, and other workers, we
have the 9-5.

The socialists talk of what happens in capitalism, not "No News From
Absolutely Non-existing, Never Will, Nowhere" tits like you, Robin.

Get a grasp, honestly. You've applauded a social drop out on this
list. What's happened to you?

Graham
Post by robbo203
Lets get something straight, Trotfinder. I dont assume socialists
or non-socialists dont do non-monetary things. On the contrary.
And
Post by robbo203
I am saying something more - that it is good that they do that and
that there is useful synergy between such activities and socialist
political action. Nor do you have to preach to me about the
inevitability of having to engage with the money system while we
have capitalism. I am well aware of that , thank you very much
What I object to very much is that you should find cause to fly off
the handle everytime I state an opinion. You should really start
growing up. I am getting sick and tired of this puerile behaviour
and I suggest the moderator of this forum might want to intervene
atthis juncture. Is it really acceptable to going round calling
people cunts and shits. And you call yourself a socialist? Its
downright pathetic. This is the politics of kindergarten. It has no
place in a serious socialistdiscussion forum
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
aaaaaaaah. Oh dear, found out again! I have SUCH a black and
white
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
view of society. Yeah right.
Robbo and partner are in their otium in Spain. Will he or
partner
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
explain how they got the means and papers to live in Spain? I will
not accept: it just happened or something like that doesn't
involve
Post by trotfinder2007
a long working life, savings, the children have moved out and
are
Post by robbo203
on
Post by trotfinder2007
their own feet and no longer need to be provided for, pensions
and/or a bank loan.
It's not anger Robbo, you tit. It's calling you an arrogant
little
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
shit; just like I called Michael Lewis a cunt because his view
of
Post by robbo203
a
Post by trotfinder2007
future world needed 5.5 billion people to die.
You are arrogant to the extreme if you think socialists, and non-
socialists too, don't do non-monetary things or think about how
their consumption and habits might damage the environment.
Robbo pisses me off because he is doing something a single
mother
Post by robbo203
in
Post by trotfinder2007
a sink estate is in no position to do. The fifth floor lass in a
tower block, who buys fast food and all that must repulse such a
saved (and Spanish suntanned wanker) like you, eh?
I once had respect for you. Not any more. Your sneering at the
socialists and the working class is obvious for all to see.
Go grow the patotoes, along with that dappy World In Common bunch
Graham
Post by robbo203
I see Trotfinder is at it again - peddling his simplistic
black
Post by robbo203
or
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
white view of the world while verbally abusing others who not
see
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
eye to eye with him on every point(still havent gone along to
those
Post by robbo203
anger management classes,eh?) For the record , I think Nick
makes
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
some good points but that deosnt mean I renounce the need for
socialist political action as well. When is the penny going to
drop
Post by robbo203
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
as the saying goes: there is so much wrong with this it's hard
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
know where to start! (Doesn't surprise me this twaddle gets
Robbo's
Post by trotfinder2007
enthusiastic support.)
Nick Tapping: "the best we can do is withdraw our labour
from
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
any
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
capitalist [work for the public service or go self
employed],
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
scamm
Post by trotfinder2007
any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity
game,
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Buy
Post by trotfinder2007
as least as possible. live and give as least as possible to
the
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
system."
This is a blueprint for "dropping out" and as serious a
suggestion
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
for social change as growing spuds for revolution. (Or the
even
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
whackier 1960s classic "Eat Brown Rice and Make the
Revolution",
Post by trotfinder2007
a
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
title of a book which urged the cadre to have a brown rice
diet
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
purge their bodies of toxins in order to be better
revolutionaries!!!)
It is an individualist, hollow echo of protest. "The system"
(by
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
which Nick probably means the capitalist mode of production
and
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
social relationships) is very well equipped to deal with the
H.D.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Thoreaus of this world, not least because of the massive
inequality
Post by trotfinder2007
in land ownership per definition due to capitalists'
ownership
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
of
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
the means of living.
Scam money? What is that supposed to mean? Anyway, the
forces
Post by robbo203
of
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
the
Post by trotfinder2007
state exist to lock up scammers.
What is working for "the public service" if not working for
the
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
National Capitalist, the State? And self-employment? Well,
there
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
are
Post by trotfinder2007
lots who do (e.g. my brother in law is a plumber) - and you
would
Post by robbo203
be
Post by trotfinder2007
in competition with them - but on the whole the idea that a
wheel
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
can be turned backwards and the working class can become
artisans
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
again is cloud cuckoo land.
And Nick's contribution ends in some sort of ascetic, amish,
puritan
Post by trotfinder2007
call. What is "buying too much"?
I am sick to the back teeth of the life-
style "revolutionaries".
Post by trotfinder2007
I
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
swear they don't have a chica and some bairnes to think
about.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
And
Post by robbo203
I
Post by trotfinder2007
want my electronic gadgets. I gain enormous pleasure from
astronomy
Post by trotfinder2007
because of them; a joy and gadgetry I have used countless
times
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
teach others about the night sky. My latest gadget is an all
in
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
one
Post by trotfinder2007
printer/scanner/fax and photo developer. I am using that to
put
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
articles of the Socialist Standard online.
I also note that the life-stylers (Nick, Robbo, Michael
Lewis,
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
etc)
Post by trotfinder2007
have a patronising view of what others actually DO. I don't
drive
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
and have no wish to; I have an allotment; I buy alot second
hand
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
stuff; etc.
Graham
robbo203
2007-10-27 17:34:05 UTC
Permalink
How pathetic can you get. Trotfinder, if you want to vent your
frustrations do it in some other way. Kindly dont offload it on this
forum. Your little tantrum was unprovoked and uncalled for.

I might add that your observations on my own personal circumstances
are laughably wide of the mark and malicious to boot - and then you
have the nerve to call me arrogant! Hah! You really are the snotty-
nosed little adolescant with an attitude problem you have shown
yourself to be.

Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
PS
I knew that you are a cry baby. lol
God forbid someone call your arrogance. Lucky you I am an uncouth
member of the class you wish to liberate, by showing me how to
grow
Post by trotfinder2007
spuds or drop out of society.
Oh grow up Robin. Your life-stylism is perhaps something well
endowed pensioners like you can do. Forme, and other workers, we
have the 9-5.
The socialists talk of what happens in capitalism, not "No News From
Absolutely Non-existing, Never Will, Nowhere" tits like you, Robin.
Get a grasp, honestly. You've applauded a social drop out on this
list. What's happened to you?
Graham
Post by robbo203
Lets get something straight, Trotfinder. I dont assume
socialists
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
or non-socialists dont do non-monetary things. On the contrary.
And
Post by robbo203
I am saying something more - that it is good that they do that and
that there is useful synergy between such activities and
socialist
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
political action. Nor do you have to preach to me about the
inevitability of having to engage with the money system while we
have capitalism. I am well aware of that , thank you very much
What I object to very much is that you should find cause to fly
off
Post by robbo203
the handle everytime I state an opinion. You should really
start
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
growing up. I am getting sick and tired of this puerile
behaviour
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
and I suggest the moderator of this forum might want to
intervene
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
atthis juncture. Is it really acceptable to going round calling
people cunts and shits. And you call yourself a socialist? Its
downright pathetic. This is the politics of kindergarten. It
has
Post by trotfinder2007
no
Post by robbo203
place in a serious socialistdiscussion forum
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
aaaaaaaah. Oh dear, found out again! I have SUCH a black and
white
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
view of society. Yeah right.
Robbo and partner are in their otium in Spain. Will he or
partner
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
explain how they got the means and papers to live in Spain? I
will
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
not accept: it just happened or something like that doesn't
involve
Post by trotfinder2007
a long working life, savings, the children have moved out and
are
Post by robbo203
on
Post by trotfinder2007
their own feet and no longer need to be provided for, pensions
and/or a bank loan.
It's not anger Robbo, you tit. It's calling you an arrogant
little
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
shit; just like I called Michael Lewis a cunt because his view
of
Post by robbo203
a
Post by trotfinder2007
future world needed 5.5 billion people to die.
You are arrogant to the extreme if you think socialists, and non-
socialists too, don't do non-monetary things or think about how
their consumption and habits might damage the environment.
Robbo pisses me off because he is doing something a single
mother
Post by robbo203
in
Post by trotfinder2007
a sink estate is in no position to do. The fifth floor lass in a
tower block, who buys fast food and all that must repulse such a
saved (and Spanish suntanned wanker) like you, eh?
I once had respect for you. Not any more. Your sneering at the
socialists and the working class is obvious for all to see.
Go grow the patotoes, along with that dappy World In Common bunch
Graham
Post by robbo203
I see Trotfinder is at it again - peddling his simplistic
black
Post by robbo203
or
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
white view of the world while verbally abusing others who not
see
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
eye to eye with him on every point(still havent gone along to
those
Post by robbo203
anger management classes,eh?) For the record , I think Nick
makes
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
some good points but that deosnt mean I renounce the need for
socialist political action as well. When is the penny going
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
drop
Post by robbo203
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
as the saying goes: there is so much wrong with this it's
hard
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
know where to start! (Doesn't surprise me this twaddle
gets
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Robbo's
Post by trotfinder2007
enthusiastic support.)
Nick Tapping: "the best we can do is withdraw our labour
from
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
any
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
capitalist [work for the public service or go self
employed],
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
scamm
Post by trotfinder2007
any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity
game,
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Buy
Post by trotfinder2007
as least as possible. live and give as least as possible to
the
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
system."
This is a blueprint for "dropping out" and as serious a
suggestion
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
for social change as growing spuds for revolution. (Or the
even
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
whackier 1960s classic "Eat Brown Rice and Make the
Revolution",
Post by trotfinder2007
a
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
title of a book which urged the cadre to have a brown rice
diet
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
purge their bodies of toxins in order to be better
revolutionaries!!!)
It is an individualist, hollow echo of protest. "The
system"
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
(by
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
which Nick probably means the capitalist mode of
production
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
and
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
social relationships) is very well equipped to deal with the
H.D.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Thoreaus of this world, not least because of the massive
inequality
Post by trotfinder2007
in land ownership per definition due to capitalists'
ownership
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
of
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
the means of living.
Scam money? What is that supposed to mean? Anyway, the
forces
Post by robbo203
of
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
the
Post by trotfinder2007
state exist to lock up scammers.
What is working for "the public service" if not working for
the
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
National Capitalist, the State? And self-employment? Well,
there
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
are
Post by trotfinder2007
lots who do (e.g. my brother in law is a plumber) - and you
would
Post by robbo203
be
Post by trotfinder2007
in competition with them - but on the whole the idea that a
wheel
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
can be turned backwards and the working class can become
artisans
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
again is cloud cuckoo land.
And Nick's contribution ends in some sort of ascetic,
amish,
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
puritan
Post by trotfinder2007
call. What is "buying too much"?
I am sick to the back teeth of the life-
style "revolutionaries".
Post by trotfinder2007
I
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
swear they don't have a chica and some bairnes to think
about.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
And
Post by robbo203
I
Post by trotfinder2007
want my electronic gadgets. I gain enormous pleasure from
astronomy
Post by trotfinder2007
because of them; a joy and gadgetry I have used countless
times
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
teach others about the night sky. My latest gadget is an all
in
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
one
Post by trotfinder2007
printer/scanner/fax and photo developer. I am using that to
put
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
articles of the Socialist Standard online.
I also note that the life-stylers (Nick, Robbo, Michael
Lewis,
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
etc)
Post by trotfinder2007
have a patronising view of what others actually DO. I
don't
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
drive
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
and have no wish to; I have an allotment; I buy alot
second
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
hand
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
stuff; etc.
Graham
trotfinder2007
2007-10-27 17:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Why don't you stop making pronouncements on the lives of workers and
the work of socialists from "Utopian Towers" in sunny Spain, Robin?

Some of us, many of us, don't have the chance to piss off to Spain.
We have bills to pay and children to care for. Fuck your half-baked
critiques of us who work for a wage, buy commodities, don't live in
permaculture and all the other stuff.

This is the point. Only a small percentage can do the things you or
Nick Tapping yap on about. Yet you attack the socialists because we
don't embrace your notion.

As said: get a grip, you tit.

This Wiccan life-stylism is as utopian as it is grossly offensive to
us who do what we can to get by and work for socialism

Graham
Post by robbo203
How pathetic can you get. Trotfinder, if you want to vent your
frustrations do it in some other way. Kindly dont offload it on this
forum. Your little tantrum was unprovoked and uncalled for.
I might add that your observations on my own personal
circumstances
Post by robbo203
are laughably wide of the mark and malicious to boot - and then you
have the nerve to call me arrogant! Hah! You really are the snotty-
nosed little adolescant with an attitude problem you have shown
yourself to be.
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
PS
I knew that you are a cry baby. lol
God forbid someone call your arrogance. Lucky you I am an
uncouth
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
member of the class you wish to liberate, by showing me how to
grow
Post by trotfinder2007
spuds or drop out of society.
Oh grow up Robin. Your life-stylism is perhaps something well
endowed pensioners like you can do. Forme, and other workers, we
have the 9-5.
The socialists talk of what happens in capitalism, not "No News
From
Post by trotfinder2007
Absolutely Non-existing, Never Will, Nowhere" tits like you,
Robin.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Get a grasp, honestly. You've applauded a social drop out on
this
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
list. What's happened to you?
Graham
Post by robbo203
Lets get something straight, Trotfinder. I dont assume
socialists
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
or non-socialists dont do non-monetary things. On the
contrary.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
And
Post by robbo203
I am saying something more - that it is good that they do that
and
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
that there is useful synergy between such activities and
socialist
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
political action. Nor do you have to preach to me about the
inevitability of having to engage with the money system while we
have capitalism. I am well aware of that , thank you very much
What I object to very much is that you should find cause to fly
off
Post by robbo203
the handle everytime I state an opinion. You should really
start
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
growing up. I am getting sick and tired of this puerile
behaviour
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
and I suggest the moderator of this forum might want to
intervene
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
atthis juncture. Is it really acceptable to going round
calling
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
people cunts and shits. And you call yourself a socialist?
Its
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
downright pathetic. This is the politics of kindergarten. It
has
Post by trotfinder2007
no
Post by robbo203
place in a serious socialistdiscussion forum
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
aaaaaaaah. Oh dear, found out again! I have SUCH a black and
white
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
view of society. Yeah right.
Robbo and partner are in their otium in Spain. Will he or
partner
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
explain how they got the means and papers to live in Spain? I
will
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
not accept: it just happened or something like that doesn't
involve
Post by trotfinder2007
a long working life, savings, the children have moved out and
are
Post by robbo203
on
Post by trotfinder2007
their own feet and no longer need to be provided for,
pensions
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
and/or a bank loan.
It's not anger Robbo, you tit. It's calling you an arrogant
little
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
shit; just like I called Michael Lewis a cunt because his view
of
Post by robbo203
a
Post by trotfinder2007
future world needed 5.5 billion people to die.
You are arrogant to the extreme if you think socialists, and
non-
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
socialists too, don't do non-monetary things or think about
how
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
their consumption and habits might damage the environment.
Robbo pisses me off because he is doing something a single
mother
Post by robbo203
in
Post by trotfinder2007
a sink estate is in no position to do. The fifth floor lass
in
Post by robbo203
a
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
tower block, who buys fast food and all that must repulse
such
Post by robbo203
a
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
saved (and Spanish suntanned wanker) like you, eh?
I once had respect for you. Not any more. Your sneering at the
socialists and the working class is obvious for all to see.
Go grow the patotoes, along with that dappy World In Common
bunch
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Graham
Post by robbo203
I see Trotfinder is at it again - peddling his simplistic
black
Post by robbo203
or
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
white view of the world while verbally abusing others who
not
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
see
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
eye to eye with him on every point(still havent gone along
to
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
those
Post by robbo203
anger management classes,eh?) For the record , I think
Nick
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
makes
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
some good points but that deosnt mean I renounce the need
for
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
socialist political action as well. When is the penny
going
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
drop
Post by robbo203
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
as the saying goes: there is so much wrong with this
it's
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
hard
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
know where to start! (Doesn't surprise me this twaddle
gets
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Robbo's
Post by trotfinder2007
enthusiastic support.)
Nick Tapping: "the best we can do is withdraw our labour
from
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
any
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
capitalist [work for the public service or go self
employed],
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
scamm
Post by trotfinder2007
any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the
commodity
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
game,
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Buy
Post by trotfinder2007
as least as possible. live and give as least as possible
to
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
the
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
system."
This is a blueprint for "dropping out" and as serious a
suggestion
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
for social change as growing spuds for revolution. (Or the
even
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
whackier 1960s classic "Eat Brown Rice and Make the
Revolution",
Post by trotfinder2007
a
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
title of a book which urged the cadre to have a brown rice
diet
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
purge their bodies of toxins in order to be better
revolutionaries!!!)
It is an individualist, hollow echo of protest. "The
system"
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
(by
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
which Nick probably means the capitalist mode of
production
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
and
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
social relationships) is very well equipped to deal with
the
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
H.D.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Thoreaus of this world, not least because of the massive
inequality
Post by trotfinder2007
in land ownership per definition due to capitalists'
ownership
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
of
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
the means of living.
Scam money? What is that supposed to mean? Anyway, the
forces
Post by robbo203
of
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
the
Post by trotfinder2007
state exist to lock up scammers.
What is working for "the public service" if not working
for
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
the
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
National Capitalist, the State? And self-employment?
Well,
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
there
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
are
Post by trotfinder2007
lots who do (e.g. my brother in law is a plumber) - and
you
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
would
Post by robbo203
be
Post by trotfinder2007
in competition with them - but on the whole the idea
that
Post by robbo203
a
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
wheel
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
can be turned backwards and the working class can become
artisans
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
again is cloud cuckoo land.
And Nick's contribution ends in some sort of ascetic,
amish,
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
puritan
Post by trotfinder2007
call. What is "buying too much"?
I am sick to the back teeth of the life-
style "revolutionaries".
Post by trotfinder2007
I
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
swear they don't have a chica and some bairnes to think
about.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
And
Post by robbo203
I
Post by trotfinder2007
want my electronic gadgets. I gain enormous pleasure
from
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
astronomy
Post by trotfinder2007
because of them; a joy and gadgetry I have used
countless
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
times
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
teach others about the night sky. My latest gadget is an
all
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
in
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
one
Post by trotfinder2007
printer/scanner/fax and photo developer. I am using that
to
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
put
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
articles of the Socialist Standard online.
I also note that the life-stylers (Nick, Robbo, Michael
Lewis,
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
etc)
Post by trotfinder2007
have a patronising view of what others actually DO. I
don't
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
drive
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
and have no wish to; I have an allotment; I buy alot
second
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
hand
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
stuff; etc.
Graham
joolsyp
2007-10-28 21:28:03 UTC
Permalink
I see Graham not content with being banned from 2 internal SPGB mailing lists for his
abusive behaviour and offensive language (and threatening to resign in the process) is
going for the hat-trick on this forum!

Go on son you can do it! Go for the match ball!

JP

p.s perhaps listening to too much Napalm Death again Graham? ;-)
Post by trotfinder2007
Why don't you stop making pronouncements on the lives of workers and
the work of socialists from "Utopian Towers" in sunny Spain, Robin?
Some of us, many of us, don't have the chance to piss off to Spain.
We have bills to pay and children to care for. Fuck your half-baked
critiques of us who work for a wage, buy commodities, don't live in
permaculture and all the other stuff.
This is the point. Only a small percentage can do the things you or
Nick Tapping yap on about. Yet you attack the socialists because we
don't embrace your notion.
As said: get a grip, you tit.
This Wiccan life-stylism is as utopian as it is grossly offensive to
us who do what we can to get by and work for socialism
Graham
balmer_dave
2007-10-28 21:47:55 UTC
Permalink
I would like it, as a polite participant of this forum, for everyone
to cool off a bit, and that would include incitement and provocation.

Turning it into a snakepit just discourages others to participate.
Post by joolsyp
I see Graham not content with being banned from 2 internal SPGB mailing lists for his
abusive behaviour and offensive language (and threatening to
resign in the process) is
Post by joolsyp
going for the hat-trick on this forum!
Go on son you can do it! Go for the match ball!
JP
p.s perhaps listening to too much Napalm Death again Graham? ;-)
Post by trotfinder2007
Why don't you stop making pronouncements on the lives of workers and
the work of socialists from "Utopian Towers" in sunny Spain,
Robin?
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
Some of us, many of us, don't have the chance to piss off to
Spain.
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
We have bills to pay and children to care for. Fuck your half-
baked
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
critiques of us who work for a wage, buy commodities, don't live in
permaculture and all the other stuff.
This is the point. Only a small percentage can do the things you or
Nick Tapping yap on about. Yet you attack the socialists because we
don't embrace your notion.
As said: get a grip, you tit.
This Wiccan life-stylism is as utopian as it is grossly
offensive to
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
us who do what we can to get by and work for socialism
Graham
trotfinder2007
2007-10-28 22:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Get your facts right, Jools

-I am not banned from the SPGB fora
-I thought of resigning because certain people displayed an obvious
disagreement with the Object and Declaration of Principles, whilst
calling themselves members ( now they are gone or are going soon,
being expelled)

I am not surprised at your tone Jools. You Wiccans like tocome
across as all nice, when in fact you like nothing better than to
give the SPGB a blow. Doesn't surprise me really. You have no theory
or principles. Just look at Robbo's latest support for Nick
Tapping's anti-socialist garbage. "Anything goes" for you tits,
doesn't it? You have no principles to speak of. And spades loads of
hate for the communist politics of capturing the state machine.

Graham
Post by joolsyp
I see Graham not content with being banned from 2 internal SPGB mailing lists for his
abusive behaviour and offensive language (and threatening to
resign in the process) is
Post by joolsyp
going for the hat-trick on this forum!
Go on son you can do it! Go for the match ball!
JP
p.s perhaps listening to too much Napalm Death again Graham? ;-)
Post by trotfinder2007
Why don't you stop making pronouncements on the lives of workers and
the work of socialists from "Utopian Towers" in sunny Spain,
Robin?
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
Some of us, many of us, don't have the chance to piss off to
Spain.
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
We have bills to pay and children to care for. Fuck your half-
baked
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
critiques of us who work for a wage, buy commodities, don't live in
permaculture and all the other stuff.
This is the point. Only a small percentage can do the things you or
Nick Tapping yap on about. Yet you attack the socialists because we
don't embrace your notion.
As said: get a grip, you tit.
This Wiccan life-stylism is as utopian as it is grossly
offensive to
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
us who do what we can to get by and work for socialism
Graham
joolsyp
2007-10-29 08:11:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by trotfinder2007
Get your facts right, Jools
-I am not banned from the SPGB fora
Perhaps not at the moment - but are you denying that you were banned a
little while ago? What was that for then Graham?
Post by trotfinder2007
-I thought of resigning because certain people displayed an obvious
disagreement with the Object and Declaration of Principles, whilst
calling themselves members ( now they are gone or are going soon,
being expelled)
I am not surprised at your tone Jools. You Wiccans like tocome
across as all nice, when in fact you like nothing better than to
give the SPGB a blow. Doesn't surprise me really. You have no theory
or principles. Just look at Robbo's latest support for Nick
Tapping's anti-socialist garbage. "Anything goes" for you tits,
doesn't it? You have no principles to speak of. And spades loads of
hate for the communist politics of capturing the state machine.
Graham
As usual Graham you never let debate and critique get in the way of
invective, do you? Dave Flynn once categorised the SPGB membership as
composed of 'fundamentalists' vs the 'modernisers.' I'd put you in the
fundy camp although I think you're off the scale mate. Have you ever
considered joining the Socialist Studies group - I'm sure they'd
welcome you with open arms.

JP
robbo203
2007-10-29 13:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by trotfinder2007
Get your facts right, Jools
-I am not banned from the SPGB fora
-I thought of resigning because certain people displayed an
obvious
Post by trotfinder2007
disagreement with the Object and Declaration of Principles, whilst
calling themselves members ( now they are gone or are going soon,
being expelled)
I am not surprised at your tone Jools. You Wiccans like tocome
across as all nice, when in fact you like nothing better than to
give the SPGB a blow. Doesn't surprise me really. You have no
theory
Post by trotfinder2007
or principles. Just look at Robbo's latest support for Nick
Tapping's anti-socialist garbage. "Anything goes" for you tits,
doesn't it? You have no principles to speak of. And spades loads of
hate for the communist politics of capturing the state machine.
Graham
"Wiccans" as you call us in World in Common, some of whom are
members of the SPGB, have no problem with the SPGB. What we have
is a problem with the persistently puerile, sneering and abusive
behaviour of one particular individual member of the SPGB called
Graham Taylor who, I see, also has the habit of persistently
distorting what other people have to say. This individual is a
disgrace to the SPGB yet has the temerity to accuse others of being
anti-SPGB!

Robin
bddanel
2007-10-30 21:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Graham:

The know of no WIC members that aren't firmly in favor of getting rid of the capitalist state. Where did you come up with that anyway?

Byron
----- Original Message -----
From: trotfinder2007
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:05 PM
Subject: [SPAM][WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


Get your facts right, Jools

-I am not banned from the SPGB fora
-I thought of resigning because certain people displayed an obvious
disagreement with the Object and Declaration of Principles, whilst
calling themselves members ( now they are gone or are going soon,
being expelled)

I am not surprised at your tone Jools. You Wiccans like tocome
across as all nice, when in fact you like nothing better than to
give the SPGB a blow. Doesn't surprise me really. You have no theory
or principles. Just look at Robbo's latest support for Nick
Tapping's anti-socialist garbage. "Anything goes" for you tits,
doesn't it? You have no principles to speak of. And spades loads of
hate for the communist politics of capturing the state machine.

Graham
Post by joolsyp
I see Graham not content with being banned from 2 internal SPGB mailing lists for his
abusive behaviour and offensive language (and threatening to
resign in the process) is
Post by joolsyp
going for the hat-trick on this forum!
Go on son you can do it! Go for the match ball!
JP
p.s perhaps listening to too much Napalm Death again Graham? ;-)
Post by trotfinder2007
Why don't you stop making pronouncements on the lives of workers and
the work of socialists from "Utopian Towers" in sunny Spain,
Robin?
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
Some of us, many of us, don't have the chance to piss off to
Spain.
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
We have bills to pay and children to care for. Fuck your half-
baked
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
critiques of us who work for a wage, buy commodities, don't live in
permaculture and all the other stuff.
This is the point. Only a small percentage can do the things you or
Nick Tapping yap on about. Yet you attack the socialists because we
don't embrace your notion.
As said: get a grip, you tit.
This Wiccan life-stylism is as utopian as it is grossly
offensive to
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
us who do what we can to get by and work for socialism
Graham
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Graham Taylor
2007-10-31 05:20:35 UTC
Permalink
I was thinking more of the political nature of revolution Byron; ie. elections, votes, capturing the state machine and converting it into an agent of emancipation, etc. All the stuff anarchists loathe!

Graham




---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Funk yness
2007-10-31 05:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Good luck there, most people today in the americas at least are capitalist. Japan+america+india+europe+china are pretty capitalist... there are "pockets" of soocialist or social justice type thinknig but I think (which country is it? sweden?) found a balance within the capitalist system.

I guess you think the only real way socialism will come is by violent revolution and wiping out anyone infected with capitalist idealogy.

Graham Taylor <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
I was thinking more of the political nature of revolution Byron; ie. elections, votes, capturing the state machine and converting it into an agent of emancipation, etc. All the stuff anarchists loathe!

Graham

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
trotfinder2007
2007-10-31 09:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Geezuz....Have you applied for the position of "Village Idiot")

There can be no socialism without majority socialist understanding.
Opponents of socialism, in a revolution, would only be killed if
they were the ones to use violence first, leaving an armed response
as the only option available.

Graham
Post by Funk yness
Good luck there, most people today in the americas at least are
capitalist. Japan+america+india+europe+china are pretty
capitalist... there are "pockets" of soocialist or social justice
type thinknig but I think (which country is it? sweden?) found a
balance within the capitalist system.
Post by Funk yness
I guess you think the only real way socialism will come is by
violent revolution and wiping out anyone infected with capitalist
idealogy.
Post by Funk yness
I was thinking more of the political nature of
revolution Byron; ie. elections, votes, capturing the state machine
and converting it into an agent of emancipation, etc. All the stuff
anarchists loathe!
Post by Funk yness
Graham
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hud955
2007-10-31 09:50:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Funky

I suggest you try to find out what the WSM socialist case actually
is before you start throwing a lot of half-baked insults around.
Many of your comments are way off mark.

Regards

Richard
Post by Funk yness
Good luck there, most people today in the americas at least are
capitalist. Japan+america+india+europe+china are pretty
capitalist... there are "pockets" of soocialist or social justice
type thinknig but I think (which country is it? sweden?) found a
balance within the capitalist system.
Post by Funk yness
I guess you think the only real way socialism will come is by
violent revolution and wiping out anyone infected with capitalist
idealogy.
Post by Funk yness
I was thinking more of the political nature of
revolution Byron; ie. elections, votes, capturing the state machine
and converting it into an agent of emancipation, etc. All the stuff
anarchists loathe!
Post by Funk yness
Graham
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bddanel
2007-10-30 21:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Graham:

The know of no WIC members that aren't firmly in favor of getting rid of the capitalist state. Where did you come up with that anyway?

Byron
----- Original Message -----
From: trotfinder2007
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:05 PM
Subject: [SPAM][WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


Get your facts right, Jools

-I am not banned from the SPGB fora
-I thought of resigning because certain people displayed an obvious
disagreement with the Object and Declaration of Principles, whilst
calling themselves members ( now they are gone or are going soon,
being expelled)

I am not surprised at your tone Jools. You Wiccans like tocome
across as all nice, when in fact you like nothing better than to
give the SPGB a blow. Doesn't surprise me really. You have no theory
or principles. Just look at Robbo's latest support for Nick
Tapping's anti-socialist garbage. "Anything goes" for you tits,
doesn't it? You have no principles to speak of. And spades loads of
hate for the communist politics of capturing the state machine.

Graham
Post by joolsyp
I see Graham not content with being banned from 2 internal SPGB mailing lists for his
abusive behaviour and offensive language (and threatening to
resign in the process) is
Post by joolsyp
going for the hat-trick on this forum!
Go on son you can do it! Go for the match ball!
JP
p.s perhaps listening to too much Napalm Death again Graham? ;-)
Post by trotfinder2007
Why don't you stop making pronouncements on the lives of workers and
the work of socialists from "Utopian Towers" in sunny Spain,
Robin?
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
Some of us, many of us, don't have the chance to piss off to
Spain.
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
We have bills to pay and children to care for. Fuck your half-
baked
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
critiques of us who work for a wage, buy commodities, don't live in
permaculture and all the other stuff.
This is the point. Only a small percentage can do the things you or
Nick Tapping yap on about. Yet you attack the socialists because we
don't embrace your notion.
As said: get a grip, you tit.
This Wiccan life-stylism is as utopian as it is grossly
offensive to
Post by joolsyp
Post by trotfinder2007
us who do what we can to get by and work for socialism
Graham
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-27 19:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Hes either jealous of you Robin or you make him aware of his contradictions.
----- Original Message -----
From: trotfinder2007
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 2:19 PM
Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


PS

I knew that you are a cry baby. lol

God forbid someone call your arrogance. Lucky you I am an uncouth
member of the class you wish to liberate, by showing me how to grow
spuds or drop out of society.

Oh grow up Robin. Your life-stylism is perhaps something well
endowed pensioners like you can do. Forme, and other workers, we
have the 9-5.

The socialists talk of what happens in capitalism, not "No News From
Absolutely Non-existing, Never Will, Nowhere" tits like you, Robin.

Get a grasp, honestly. You've applauded a social drop out on this
list. What's happened to you?

Graham
Lets get something straight, Trotfinder. I dont assume socialists
or non-socialists dont do non-monetary things. On the contrary.
And
I am saying something more - that it is good that they do that and
that there is useful synergy between such activities and socialist
political action. Nor do you have to preach to me about the
inevitability of having to engage with the money system while we
have capitalism. I am well aware of that , thank you very much
What I object to very much is that you should find cause to fly off
the handle everytime I state an opinion. You should really start
growing up. I am getting sick and tired of this puerile behaviour
and I suggest the moderator of this forum might want to intervene
atthis juncture. Is it really acceptable to going round calling
people cunts and shits. And you call yourself a socialist? Its
downright pathetic. This is the politics of kindergarten. It has
no
place in a serious socialistdiscussion forum
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
aaaaaaaah. Oh dear, found out again! I have SUCH a black and
white
Post by trotfinder2007
view of society. Yeah right.
Robbo and partner are in their otium in Spain. Will he or
partner
Post by trotfinder2007
explain how they got the means and papers to live in Spain? I will
not accept: it just happened or something like that doesn't
involve
Post by trotfinder2007
a long working life, savings, the children have moved out and
are
on
Post by trotfinder2007
their own feet and no longer need to be provided for, pensions
and/or a bank loan.
It's not anger Robbo, you tit. It's calling you an arrogant
little
Post by trotfinder2007
shit; just like I called Michael Lewis a cunt because his view
of
a
Post by trotfinder2007
future world needed 5.5 billion people to die.
You are arrogant to the extreme if you think socialists, and non-
socialists too, don't do non-monetary things or think about how
their consumption and habits might damage the environment.
Robbo pisses me off because he is doing something a single
mother
in
Post by trotfinder2007
a sink estate is in no position to do. The fifth floor lass in a
tower block, who buys fast food and all that must repulse such a
saved (and Spanish suntanned wanker) like you, eh?
I once had respect for you. Not any more. Your sneering at the
socialists and the working class is obvious for all to see.
Go grow the patotoes, along with that dappy World In Common bunch
Graham
Post by robbo203
I see Trotfinder is at it again - peddling his simplistic
black
or
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
white view of the world while verbally abusing others who not
see
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
eye to eye with him on every point(still havent gone along to
those
Post by robbo203
anger management classes,eh?) For the record , I think Nick
makes
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
some good points but that deosnt mean I renounce the need for
socialist political action as well. When is the penny going
to
Post by trotfinder2007
drop
Post by robbo203
Robin
Post by trotfinder2007
Hi all
as the saying goes: there is so much wrong with this it's hard
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
know where to start! (Doesn't surprise me this twaddle gets
Robbo's
Post by trotfinder2007
enthusiastic support.)
Nick Tapping: "the best we can do is withdraw our labour
from
Post by trotfinder2007
any
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
capitalist [work for the public service or go self
employed],
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
scamm
Post by trotfinder2007
any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity
game,
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Buy
Post by trotfinder2007
as least as possible. live and give as least as possible to
the
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
system."
This is a blueprint for "dropping out" and as serious a
suggestion
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
for social change as growing spuds for revolution. (Or the
even
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
whackier 1960s classic "Eat Brown Rice and Make the
Revolution",
Post by trotfinder2007
a
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
title of a book which urged the cadre to have a brown rice
diet
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
purge their bodies of toxins in order to be better
revolutionaries!!!)
It is an individualist, hollow echo of protest. "The system"
(by
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
which Nick probably means the capitalist mode of production
and
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
social relationships) is very well equipped to deal with the
H.D.
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
Thoreaus of this world, not least because of the massive
inequality
Post by trotfinder2007
in land ownership per definition due to capitalists'
ownership
Post by trotfinder2007
of
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
the means of living.
Scam money? What is that supposed to mean? Anyway, the
forces
of
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
the
Post by trotfinder2007
state exist to lock up scammers.
What is working for "the public service" if not working for
the
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
National Capitalist, the State? And self-employment? Well,
there
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
are
Post by trotfinder2007
lots who do (e.g. my brother in law is a plumber) - and you
would
Post by robbo203
be
Post by trotfinder2007
in competition with them - but on the whole the idea that a
wheel
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
can be turned backwards and the working class can become
artisans
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
again is cloud cuckoo land.
And Nick's contribution ends in some sort of ascetic, amish,
puritan
Post by trotfinder2007
call. What is "buying too much"?
I am sick to the back teeth of the life-
style "revolutionaries".
Post by trotfinder2007
I
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
swear they don't have a chica and some bairnes to think
about.
Post by trotfinder2007
And
Post by robbo203
I
Post by trotfinder2007
want my electronic gadgets. I gain enormous pleasure from
astronomy
Post by trotfinder2007
because of them; a joy and gadgetry I have used countless
times
Post by trotfinder2007
to
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
teach others about the night sky. My latest gadget is an all
in
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
one
Post by trotfinder2007
printer/scanner/fax and photo developer. I am using that to
put
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
articles of the Socialist Standard online.
I also note that the life-stylers (Nick, Robbo, Michael
Lewis,
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
etc)
Post by trotfinder2007
have a patronising view of what others actually DO. I don't
drive
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
and have no wish to; I have an allotment; I buy alot second
hand
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by robbo203
Post by trotfinder2007
stuff; etc.
Graham
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
trotfinder2007
2007-10-28 04:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Tapping
Hes either jealous of you Robin or you make him aware of his
contradictions.
Given the crappy social environment of the big city and that it
feels like it always rains and is cold in Denmark, who wouldn't want
to be in pleasing countryside in Spain?

The thing is it is no good attacking the working class for the way
it lives as a critique of society, which is what it boils down to in
the end.

If ecological destruction is your worry, address the Capitalist
System. A particular example is the biofuel. It's a lucrative
market, with lots of juicy profits to be had, so land is being
cleared of rain forest to plant crops for fuel - once such an
ecosystem is gone it will never come back. The apes are under threat
of extinction; removing tree cover opens up land to the dangers of
quick erosion; and the forests are Carbon sinks with a non-trivial
impact on climate. The food market is seeing rising prices because
farmers are using a bigger percentage of their yields to cash in on
biofuels. Yet the present generation of biofuel production isn't
efficient nor does it save much on the Carbon footprint, as some of
its advocates make out.

In a life-style way, use the bus and avoid the use of tropical wood
for sure. Perhaps even stop using palm oil products, which will be
quite hard as many of the products in shops derive from it.

But that will do precious little unless we, the workers, take back
the land from the ownership of the Capitalist Class.

the consumer society of capitalism is part of socialist criticism,
as in the fetishism of commodities. It is NOT the be all and end all
of socialism, which centrally addresses the question of classes and
property society.

Graham
Marcos Colome
2007-10-28 06:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Bio-fuel is not the solution to the probelm, some country the whole land is
going to use in order to plant corn, and corn is going to be planted by the
big rich farmers, and the planting of corns is going to create more
ecological problem than petroleum, because the land is not going to rest and
the small peasants are going into bankruptcy amd they big farmers are going
to eliminate the peasants and many are going into hunger, or they are going
to emigrating to another country, the penetration fo foreign capital is
going to create invasion and war frictions and the impositions of
dictatorship. The best solution is the elimination of capitalism, not the
reformation of capitalism, the solution can not be left in the hands of the
ruling class, it must be taken by the working class.
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by Nick Tapping
Hes either jealous of you Robin or you make him aware of his
contradictions.
Given the crappy social environment of the big city and that it
feels like it always rains and is cold in Denmark, who wouldn't want
to be in pleasing countryside in Spain?
The thing is it is no good attacking the working class for the way
it lives as a critique of society, which is what it boils down to in
the end.
If ecological destruction is your worry, address the Capitalist
System. A particular example is the biofuel. It's a lucrative
market, with lots of juicy profits to be had, so land is being
cleared of rain forest to plant crops for fuel - once such an
ecosystem is gone it will never come back. The apes are under threat
of extinction; removing tree cover opens up land to the dangers of
quick erosion; and the forests are Carbon sinks with a non-trivial
impact on climate. The food market is seeing rising prices because
farmers are using a bigger percentage of their yields to cash in on
biofuels. Yet the present generation of biofuel production isn't
efficient nor does it save much on the Carbon footprint, as some of
its advocates make out.
In a life-style way, use the bus and avoid the use of tropical wood
for sure. Perhaps even stop using palm oil products, which will be
quite hard as many of the products in shops derive from it.
But that will do precious little unless we, the workers, take back
the land from the ownership of the Capitalist Class.
the consumer society of capitalism is part of socialist criticism,
as in the fetishism of commodities. It is NOT the be all and end all
of socialism, which centrally addresses the question of classes and
property society.
Graham
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-28 06:08:18 UTC
Permalink
I sent it without double checking my mistakes
Post by Marcos Colome
Bio-fuel is not the solution to the probelm, some country the whole land
is going to use in order to plant corn, and corn is going to be planted by
the big rich farmers, and the planting of corns is going to create more
ecological problem than petroleum, because the land is not going to rest and
the small peasants are going into bankruptcy amd they big farmers are going
to eliminate the peasants and many are going into hunger, or they are going
to emigrating to another country, the penetration fo foreign capital is
going to create invasion and war frictions and the impositions of
dictatorship. The best solution is the elimination of capitalism, not the
reformation of capitalism, the solution can not be left in the hands of the
ruling class, it must be taken by the working class.
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by Nick Tapping
Hes either jealous of you Robin or you make him aware of his contradictions.
Given the crappy social environment of the big city and that it
feels like it always rains and is cold in Denmark, who wouldn't want
to be in pleasing countryside in Spain?
The thing is it is no good attacking the working class for the way
it lives as a critique of society, which is what it boils down to in
the end.
If ecological destruction is your worry, address the Capitalist
System. A particular example is the biofuel. It's a lucrative
market, with lots of juicy profits to be had, so land is being
cleared of rain forest to plant crops for fuel - once such an
ecosystem is gone it will never come back. The apes are under threat
of extinction; removing tree cover opens up land to the dangers of
quick erosion; and the forests are Carbon sinks with a non-trivial
impact on climate. The food market is seeing rising prices because
farmers are using a bigger percentage of their yields to cash in on
biofuels. Yet the present generation of biofuel production isn't
efficient nor does it save much on the Carbon footprint, as some of
its advocates make out.
In a life-style way, use the bus and avoid the use of tropical wood
for sure. Perhaps even stop using palm oil products, which will be
quite hard as many of the products in shops derive from it.
But that will do precious little unless we, the workers, take back
the land from the ownership of the Capitalist Class.
the consumer society of capitalism is part of socialist criticism,
as in the fetishism of commodities. It is NOT the be all and end all
of socialism, which centrally addresses the question of classes and
property society.
Graham
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-28 18:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Exactly Marco bio fuel is not the answer, the answer lies in the people and their acceptance of capital, and their luv of the car. Their luv of the car is one of the biggest contributions to environmental [and communual] degradation. Why cant they walk more than a few hundred yards? Why do they prefer to create and sit in a traffic jam polluting the air for everyone, desecrating our environment cos they cant even be bothered to cycle a few miles to work?
god bless the little wankers!
why dont they overthrow capital?
nick
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcos Colome
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


Bio-fuel is not the solution to the probelm, some country the whole land is
going to use in order to plant corn, and corn is going to be planted by the
big rich farmers, and the planting of corns is going to create more
ecological problem than petroleum, because the land is not going to rest and
the small peasants are going into bankruptcy amd they big farmers are going
to eliminate the peasants and many are going into hunger, or they are going
to emigrating to another country, the penetration fo foreign capital is
going to create invasion and war frictions and the impositions of
dictatorship. The best solution is the elimination of capitalism, not the
reformation of capitalism, the solution can not be left in the hands of the
ruling class, it must be taken by the working class.
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by Nick Tapping
Hes either jealous of you Robin or you make him aware of his
contradictions.
Given the crappy social environment of the big city and that it
feels like it always rains and is cold in Denmark, who wouldn't want
to be in pleasing countryside in Spain?
The thing is it is no good attacking the working class for the way
it lives as a critique of society, which is what it boils down to in
the end.
If ecological destruction is your worry, address the Capitalist
System. A particular example is the biofuel. It's a lucrative
market, with lots of juicy profits to be had, so land is being
cleared of rain forest to plant crops for fuel - once such an
ecosystem is gone it will never come back. The apes are under threat
of extinction; removing tree cover opens up land to the dangers of
quick erosion; and the forests are Carbon sinks with a non-trivial
impact on climate. The food market is seeing rising prices because
farmers are using a bigger percentage of their yields to cash in on
biofuels. Yet the present generation of biofuel production isn't
efficient nor does it save much on the Carbon footprint, as some of
its advocates make out.
In a life-style way, use the bus and avoid the use of tropical wood
for sure. Perhaps even stop using palm oil products, which will be
quite hard as many of the products in shops derive from it.
But that will do precious little unless we, the workers, take back
the land from the ownership of the Capitalist Class.
the consumer society of capitalism is part of socialist criticism,
as in the fetishism of commodities. It is NOT the be all and end all
of socialism, which centrally addresses the question of classes and
property society.
Graham
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-29 18:06:55 UTC
Permalink
In the State of California, the car industry and the petroleum industry.
they purchased all the trains and massive transportation in order to create
freeway and to have a gasoline pump in every corner, and a car dealer in
every block, and the freeways, they are not freeways, they are big parking
lot.

The whole transportation system is a combination of, car industry,
petroleum, policemen, insurance company, court systems, attorneys, judges,
driving schools, mechanics, auto-parts, tires company, and bankers, a
network of "mafiosos", some people prefer to eat less, to eat cheap foods,
to buy cheap clothes, and to drive an expensive car. Instead of
overthrowing capital, I have seen car stickers that says If you hit my I
will kill you, the workers are helping capital, one time a friend of mine,
we went to a union meeting, as member of an organization we were planning a
strike, and we said to the union leaders, lets park all the cars on the
freeway and lets go home to watch tv and drink beers, and let's wait to see
what will happen, everybody got scare, they were ready to go to the
bathroom, and we ask them, what are we going to lose, when we do not own
anything, and they said, we are going to lose our cars.

As Marx said, "private property has made us so stupid, that, if we do not
have something privately, it is not ours", and there are many things that
are social and they are ours, and there many things that are privately
owned, but they are not ours. I have seen people that they own a big truck
with a big bed, but they do not own a l cow, or a goat, truck are used in
order to transport goods or animals in the country side, but the car
industry has transplanted those illusions in our minds, or may be some
people saw that a rich man owned a truck, and they wanted to imitate the
life of the rich and famous, it is like during the OJ Simpson trial,
everybody wanted to own a Suburban, because he owned one, and now the guy is
going to jail, but nobody wanted to go to jail with him.
Post by Nick Tapping
Exactly Marco bio fuel is not the answer, the answer lies in the people
and their acceptance of capital, and their luv of the car. Their luv of the
car is one of the biggest contributions to environmental [and communual]
degradation. Why cant they walk more than a few hundred yards? Why do they
prefer to create and sit in a traffic jam polluting the air for everyone,
desecrating our environment cos they cant even be bothered to cycle a few
miles to work?
god bless the little wankers!
why dont they overthrow capital?
nick
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcos Colome
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
Bio-fuel is not the solution to the probelm, some country the whole land is
going to use in order to plant corn, and corn is going to be planted by the
big rich farmers, and the planting of corns is going to create more
ecological problem than petroleum, because the land is not going to rest and
the small peasants are going into bankruptcy amd they big farmers are going
to eliminate the peasants and many are going into hunger, or they are going
to emigrating to another country, the penetration fo foreign capital is
going to create invasion and war frictions and the impositions of
dictatorship. The best solution is the elimination of capitalism, not the
reformation of capitalism, the solution can not be left in the hands of the
ruling class, it must be taken by the working class.
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by Nick Tapping
Hes either jealous of you Robin or you make him aware of his contradictions.
Given the crappy social environment of the big city and that it
feels like it always rains and is cold in Denmark, who wouldn't want
to be in pleasing countryside in Spain?
The thing is it is no good attacking the working class for the way
it lives as a critique of society, which is what it boils down to in
the end.
If ecological destruction is your worry, address the Capitalist
System. A particular example is the biofuel. It's a lucrative
market, with lots of juicy profits to be had, so land is being
cleared of rain forest to plant crops for fuel - once such an
ecosystem is gone it will never come back. The apes are under threat
of extinction; removing tree cover opens up land to the dangers of
quick erosion; and the forests are Carbon sinks with a non-trivial
impact on climate. The food market is seeing rising prices because
farmers are using a bigger percentage of their yields to cash in on
biofuels. Yet the present generation of biofuel production isn't
efficient nor does it save much on the Carbon footprint, as some of
its advocates make out.
In a life-style way, use the bus and avoid the use of tropical wood
for sure. Perhaps even stop using palm oil products, which will be
quite hard as many of the products in shops derive from it.
But that will do precious little unless we, the workers, take back
the land from the ownership of the Capitalist Class.
the consumer society of capitalism is part of socialist criticism,
as in the fetishism of commodities. It is NOT the be all and end all
of socialism, which centrally addresses the question of classes and
property society.
Graham
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-28 06:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Definetly
----- Original Message -----
From: trotfinder2007
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:03 AM
Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Hes either jealous of you Robin or you make him aware of his
contradictions.
Given the crappy social environment of the big city and that it
feels like it always rains and is cold in Denmark, who wouldn't want
to be in pleasing countryside in Spain?

The thing is it is no good attacking the working class for the way
it lives as a critique of society, which is what it boils down to in
the end.

If ecological destruction is your worry, address the Capitalist
System. A particular example is the biofuel. It's a lucrative
market, with lots of juicy profits to be had, so land is being
cleared of rain forest to plant crops for fuel - once such an
ecosystem is gone it will never come back. The apes are under threat
of extinction; removing tree cover opens up land to the dangers of
quick erosion; and the forests are Carbon sinks with a non-trivial
impact on climate. The food market is seeing rising prices because
farmers are using a bigger percentage of their yields to cash in on
biofuels. Yet the present generation of biofuel production isn't
efficient nor does it save much on the Carbon footprint, as some of
its advocates make out.

In a life-style way, use the bus and avoid the use of tropical wood
for sure. Perhaps even stop using palm oil products, which will be
quite hard as many of the products in shops derive from it.

But that will do precious little unless we, the workers, take back
the land from the ownership of the Capitalist Class.

the consumer society of capitalism is part of socialist criticism,
as in the fetishism of commodities. It is NOT the be all and end all
of socialism, which centrally addresses the question of classes and
property society.

Graham





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hud955
2007-10-27 10:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Tapping
the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any capitalist
[work for the public service or go self employed],

OH HE HE HE, Nick. Public service? You should try it.

(I've just spent three years on a project designed to save money for
the treasury at the expense of what the state calls 'vulnerable
people' - basically the working class. Very... hmmm... fulfilling.
Very drop-out-ish.)

I'll agree, your notions ARE subjective.

Richard



scamm any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity
game, Buy as least as possible. live and give as least as possible
to the system.
Post by Nick Tapping
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Dave,
So bottom line, do you think that volunterism and good will in
our capitalist society is doing more good? or do you think that this
is only helping make the capitalism a success and pushing a
socialist revolution out of the way.
Post by Nick Tapping
In your case I think you don't care helping capitalism by
sepparating the recyclable garbage..
Post by Nick Tapping
to what extend should we be willing to volunteer ourselves in a
capitalist society, having our socialist revolution in mind, is it
good, is it bad.. appreciate your input.
Post by Nick Tapping
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:38:44
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Yes, I have actually.
I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to my
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.
Although I don't have much of a choice about that.
Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour that
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our
rubbish,
Post by Nick Tapping
could be seen as surplus labour.
The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this sacrifices
while the owners of the means of production and distribution are
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought about
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better now
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves
that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste
company do
Post by Nick Tapping
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability
regardin
Post by Nick Tapping
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist
Post by Nick Tapping
problems.
Post by tetraedronico
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or
suffer
Post by Nick Tapping
any
Post by tetraedronico
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't
exactly
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class
Guardian
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original
thinker I
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I
suppose
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that
as
Post by tetraedronico
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their
leaders
Post by Nick Tapping
to
Post by tetraedronico
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡SÃÆ'© un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-27 10:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Richard i'll willingly admit that some public service sucks.[well probally all of it].
and scamming is dishonest but we must remember the affects that parasites have on their host, being parasitic in relation to capitalism is fine by me.
i love you socialist types; preach socialism on one hand and encourage us to oil the wheels of capitalism on the other
but im wondering whats an objective notion is? A notion that is seperate from yourself? a notion that exist independent of myself, an objective notion ... goin to have to try some intellectual somersaults to make that one exist!
isnt a notion meant to be some sort of feeling/ feelings are subjective, uhg, thoughts are subjective.ugh. Got it! somethings objective when we understand it in an abstract intellectual way but ignore it or seperate ourselves from it on the physical realm.
True socialist are real clever.
Nick
Post by Nick Tapping
the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any capitalist
[work for the public service or go self employed],

OH HE HE HE, Nick. Public service? You should try it.

(I've just spent three years on a project designed to save money for
the treasury at the expense of what the state calls 'vulnerable
people' - basically the working class. Very... hmmm... fulfilling.
Very drop-out-ish.)

I'll agree, your notions ARE subjective.

Richard

scamm any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity
game, Buy as least as possible. live and give as least as possible
to the system.
Post by Nick Tapping
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Dave,
So bottom line, do you think that volunterism and good will in
our capitalist society is doing more good? or do you think that this
is only helping make the capitalism a success and pushing a
socialist revolution out of the way.
Post by Nick Tapping
In your case I think you don't care helping capitalism by
sepparating the recyclable garbage..
Post by Nick Tapping
to what extend should we be willing to volunteer ourselves in a
capitalist society, having our socialist revolution in mind, is it
good, is it bad.. appreciate your input.
Post by Nick Tapping
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:38:44
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Yes, I have actually.
I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to
my
Post by Nick Tapping
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.
Although I don't have much of a choice about that.
Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour
that
Post by Nick Tapping
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our
rubbish,
Post by Nick Tapping
could be seen as surplus labour.
The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this sacrifices
while the owners of the means of production and distribution are
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought about
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
TetraedrÃf³nico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better
now
Post by Nick Tapping
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves
that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste
company do
Post by Nick Tapping
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability
regardin
Post by Nick Tapping
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
TetraedrÃf³nico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist
Post by Nick Tapping
problems.
Post by tetraedronico
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for
the
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass
and
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or
suffer
Post by Nick Tapping
any
Post by tetraedronico
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't
exactly
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class
Guardian
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original
thinker I
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I
suppose
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of
that
Post by Nick Tapping
as
Post by tetraedronico
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their
leaders
Post by Nick Tapping
to
Post by tetraedronico
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
Ãfâ?sÃ,¡SÃfÆ'Ã,© un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ã,¡SÃf© un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
Ã,¡SÃf© un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hud955
2007-10-27 21:28:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Tapping
isnt a notion meant to be some sort of feeling/ feelings are
subjective, uhg, thoughts are subjective.ugh. Got it! somethings
objective when we understand it in an abstract intellectual way but
ignore it or seperate ourselves from it on the physical realm.


Hi Nick

You've caught me out. You must be right: I don't like the thought of
all those nasty subjective feelings. And I'm glad you pointed this
out to me because it's made me realise that I've been living a lie.
Some years ago I trained and worked as a personal counsellor. My
wife was a counsellor too. For such a long time, I thought I was
deeply fascinated and moved by people's inner lives and inner
experiences, all those messy thoughts and feelings. I thought so too
in my relationships with my family and friends. Must have been
deluded about that. What do you suggest I do about it, Nick?

And I always believed an objective notion is simply one you have
tested out against something other than yourself. Like, I might ask
a client to clarify something to make sure my subjective
understanding of what they have told me is correct. I've always
thought that this ability was a great advantage to the human race,
but now you've made me think otherwise.

Obviously, I dealt with my clients in the wrong way. Maybe I should
just have imposed my subjective notions on them. Do you think this
would have made me a better counsellor?

Nick, I get the impression you are not very interested in other
people or what other people think (no wonder you like the idea of
subjectivism so much). I'll tell you why I think so. I've read a
number of your posts, and one of your habits is to misquote people
and then abuse them for things they didn't say. For instance, I've
not heard anyone on this forum "encourage 'us' to oil the wheels of
capitalism." You do this kind of thing regularly. That makes me
gape with amazement when YOU call people who don't agree with
you 'narcissists.' Is this a projection, I wonder.

Nick, stop flailing around and focus, man.

Regards

Richard
Post by Nick Tapping
Richard i'll willingly admit that some public service sucks.[well probally all of it].
and scamming is dishonest but we must remember the affects that
parasites have on their host, being parasitic in relation to
capitalism is fine by me.
Post by Nick Tapping
i love you socialist types; preach socialism on one hand and
encourage us to oil the wheels of capitalism on the other
Post by Nick Tapping
but im wondering whats an objective notion is? A notion that is
seperate from yourself? a notion that exist independent of myself,
an objective notion ... goin to have to try some intellectual
somersaults to make that one exist!
Post by Nick Tapping
isnt a notion meant to be some sort of feeling/ feelings are
subjective, uhg, thoughts are subjective.ugh. Got it! somethings
objective when we understand it in an abstract intellectual way but
ignore it or seperate ourselves from it on the physical realm.
Post by Nick Tapping
True socialist are real clever.
Nick
Post by Nick Tapping
the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any capitalist
[work for the public service or go self employed],
OH HE HE HE, Nick. Public service? You should try it.
(I've just spent three years on a project designed to save money for
the treasury at the expense of what the state calls 'vulnerable
people' - basically the working class. Very... hmmm...
fulfilling.
Post by Nick Tapping
Very drop-out-ish.)
I'll agree, your notions ARE subjective.
Richard
scamm any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity
game, Buy as least as possible. live and give as least as
possible
Post by Nick Tapping
to the system.
Post by Nick Tapping
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Dave,
So bottom line, do you think that volunterism and good will in
our capitalist society is doing more good? or do you think that this
is only helping make the capitalism a success and pushing a
socialist revolution out of the way.
Post by Nick Tapping
In your case I think you don't care helping capitalism by
sepparating the recyclable garbage..
Post by Nick Tapping
to what extend should we be willing to volunteer ourselves in a
capitalist society, having our socialist revolution in mind, is it
good, is it bad.. appreciate your input.
Post by Nick Tapping
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:38:44
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Yes, I have actually.
I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to
my
Post by Nick Tapping
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.
Although I don't have much of a choice about that.
Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour
that
Post by Nick Tapping
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our
rubbish,
Post by Nick Tapping
could be seen as surplus labour.
The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this
sacrifices
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by Nick Tapping
while the owners of the means of production and distribution are
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought
about
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by Nick Tapping
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
TetraedrÃf³nico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better
now
Post by Nick Tapping
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are
really
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by Nick Tapping
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this
proves
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by Nick Tapping
that people really is capable of taking personal
responsability
Post by Nick Tapping
and
Post by Nick Tapping
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste
company do
Post by Nick Tapping
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way,
this
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by Nick Tapping
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability
regardin
Post by Nick Tapping
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be
exteneded
Post by Nick Tapping
to
Post by Nick Tapping
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-
friendly
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by Nick Tapping
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
TetraedrÃf³nico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist
Post by Nick Tapping
problems.
Post by tetraedronico
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for
the
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to
sort
Post by Nick Tapping
your
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass
and
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or
suffer
Post by Nick Tapping
any
Post by tetraedronico
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't
exactly
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class
Guardian
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original
thinker I
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really,
does
Post by Nick Tapping
it.
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I
suppose
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of
that
Post by Nick Tapping
as
Post by tetraedronico
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of
people
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but
yet,
Post by Nick Tapping
I
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people
are
Post by Nick Tapping
not
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their
leaders
Post by Nick Tapping
to
Post by tetraedronico
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
_________
Post by Nick Tapping
_
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
Ãfâ?sÃ,¡SÃfÆ'Ã,© un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ã,¡SÃf© un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
Ã,¡SÃf© un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paula
2007-10-27 22:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Robin
The only solution to capitalist problems is to join - or as a
minimum, not disagree with - the SPGB.
Anyone who thinks that they have an alternative route to socialism
will be shot down in flames.
So don't come to our forum Robin, and expect to get away with anything.
Graham has my full backing.
Paula
robbo203
2007-10-27 23:39:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paula
Robin
The only solution to capitalist problems is to join - or as a
minimum, not disagree with - the SPGB.
Anyone who thinks that they have an alternative route to
socialism
Post by Paula
will be shot down in flames.
So don't come to our forum Robin, and expect to get away with
anything.
Post by Paula
Graham has my full backing.
Paula
Paula

I dont expect agreement with my views but I do expect a modicum of
reasonable behaviour from people on this forum. You surely cannot
seriously suggest that Graham Taylor has your full backing for the
puerile and insulting way in which he treats non-members of the
SPGB. He is a disgrace to the SPGB and a liability in my view

Robin
Marcos Colome
2007-10-28 00:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Have you ever been a member of any vanguard party ? Under the vanguard
party, members must agree on everything that comes from the central
committee, and the so called democratic centralism never works, and even if
you do not agree in certain issue, one must agree because it was approved by
the central committee, and the only ones allow to write in the newspaper are
the members of the central committee, and they are the only one authorized
to speak in public representing the party. I have seen more freedom of
expression in the WSM than in other so called communist parties. You should
join the RCPUSA and raise a critique against a saint called Bob Avakian, or
against a pope called Mao Tse Tung, wait for the results, or the
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada and raised a critique against Hardian
Vains, or the MPUSA that were similar to a convent or a monastery, at least
in the WSM we can raise a critique against Marx, Engels and we have
demystified Vladimir Lenin, I saw certain situation where the members of the
central committee and the members of another organizations were killing each
other just based on ideological and organization differences
Post by Paula
Robin
The only solution to capitalist problems is to join - or as a
minimum, not disagree with - the SPGB.
Anyone who thinks that they have an alternative route to socialism
will be shot down in flames.
So don't come to our forum Robin, and expect to get away with anything.
Graham has my full backing.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
balmer_dave
2007-10-28 02:37:54 UTC
Permalink
It looks like the marriage of convenience is over and Galloway has
finally got pissed off with the Trot SWP trying to take over his
Party as laid bare in the `Socialist Worker', as Galloway;


"denounces members of the SWP as unthinking "Leninists" who listen
to nobody but their shadowy and unaccountable leadership"

Never!!!!!!!!!!


" Inside Respect a campaign has been launched against the SWP in an
attempt to drive us out."

http://www.socialistworker.org.uk/art.php?id=13331

Déjà vu as they say, so it looks like we have another war brewing.
Post by Marcos Colome
Have you ever been a member of any vanguard party ? Under the
vanguard
Post by Marcos Colome
party, members must agree on everything that comes from the
central
Post by Marcos Colome
committee, and the so called democratic centralism never works, and even if
you do not agree in certain issue, one must agree because it was approved by
the central committee, and the only ones allow to write in the
newspaper are
Post by Marcos Colome
the members of the central committee, and they are the only one authorized
to speak in public representing the party. I have seen more
freedom of
Post by Marcos Colome
expression in the WSM than in other so called communist parties. You should
join the RCPUSA and raise a critique against a saint called Bob Avakian, or
against a pope called Mao Tse Tung, wait for the results, or the
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada and raised a critique against
Hardian
Post by Marcos Colome
Vains, or the MPUSA that were similar to a convent or a monastery, at least
in the WSM we can raise a critique against Marx, Engels and we have
demystified Vladimir Lenin, I saw certain situation where the
members of the
Post by Marcos Colome
central committee and the members of another organizations were killing each
other just based on ideological and organization differences
Post by Paula
Robin
The only solution to capitalist problems is to join - or as a
minimum, not disagree with - the SPGB.
Anyone who thinks that they have an alternative route to
socialism
Post by Marcos Colome
Post by Paula
will be shot down in flames.
So don't come to our forum Robin, and expect to get away with anything.
Graham has my full backing.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-28 06:23:03 UTC
Permalink
There are certain truths we may face that doesnt make an objective reality it means there are some truths which we can share, you wish to call them objective truths thats your call, but they are truths that we experience and realise at a personal level, ill call them subjective, thats my call . im bored with repeating the logic at the moment.
Is an objective notion when we fart and blame somebody else? whoops thats a motion isnt it, getting me words muddled up.

you are right no-ones has activly encourage us to oil the wheels of capitalism, but they have justified their own oiling of the wheels of capitalism and [more importantly] derided people who have chosen NOT to oil the wheels of capitalism. Its is this deriding of those that choose to give as little support as they can to the wheels of capitalism, that I have [mistakenly?] read as encouraging the oiling of the wheels of capitalism

you may like to blame capitalist for the woes of the world.
In a war its the soldier that shoots , the soldier has to accept some responsibility, I live in a greedy world , where people let there greed and selfishness run riot , they dont want to accept the responsibility of there actions, the environmental damage of their lifestyle, the suffering caused by their desire to eat other sentient beings.....you are right, i have little respect for this type of person , am i wrong in that?

----- Original Message -----
From: hud955
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 9:28 PM
Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
isnt a notion meant to be some sort of feeling/ feelings are
subjective, uhg, thoughts are subjective.ugh. Got it! somethings
objective when we understand it in an abstract intellectual way but
ignore it or seperate ourselves from it on the physical realm.

Hi Nick

You've caught me out. You must be right: I don't like the thought of
all those nasty subjective feelings. And I'm glad you pointed this
out to me because it's made me realise that I've been living a lie.
Some years ago I trained and worked as a personal counsellor. My
wife was a counsellor too. For such a long time, I thought I was
deeply fascinated and moved by people's inner lives and inner
experiences, all those messy thoughts and feelings. I thought so too
in my relationships with my family and friends. Must have been
deluded about that. What do you suggest I do about it, Nick?

And I always believed an objective notion is simply one you have
tested out against something other than yourself. Like, I might ask
a client to clarify something to make sure my subjective
understanding of what they have told me is correct. I've always
thought that this ability was a great advantage to the human race,
but now you've made me think otherwise.

Obviously, I dealt with my clients in the wrong way. Maybe I should
just have imposed my subjective notions on them. Do you think this
would have made me a better counsellor?

Nick, I get the impression you are not very interested in other
people or what other people think (no wonder you like the idea of
subjectivism so much). I'll tell you why I think so. I've read a
number of your posts, and one of your habits is to misquote people
and then abuse them for things they didn't say. For instance, I've
not heard anyone on this forum "encourage 'us' to oil the wheels of
capitalism." You do this kind of thing regularly. That makes me
gape with amazement when YOU call people who don't agree with
you 'narcissists.' Is this a projection, I wonder.

Nick, stop flailing around and focus, man.

Regards

Richard
Richard i'll willingly admit that some public service sucks.[well probally all of it].
and scamming is dishonest but we must remember the affects that
parasites have on their host, being parasitic in relation to
capitalism is fine by me.
i love you socialist types; preach socialism on one hand and
encourage us to oil the wheels of capitalism on the other
but im wondering whats an objective notion is? A notion that is
seperate from yourself? a notion that exist independent of myself,
an objective notion ... goin to have to try some intellectual
somersaults to make that one exist!
isnt a notion meant to be some sort of feeling/ feelings are
subjective, uhg, thoughts are subjective.ugh. Got it! somethings
objective when we understand it in an abstract intellectual way but
ignore it or seperate ourselves from it on the physical realm.
True socialist are real clever.
Nick
Post by Nick Tapping
the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any capitalist
[work for the public service or go self employed],
OH HE HE HE, Nick. Public service? You should try it.
(I've just spent three years on a project designed to save money for
the treasury at the expense of what the state calls 'vulnerable
people' - basically the working class. Very... hmmm...
fulfilling.
Very drop-out-ish.)
I'll agree, your notions ARE subjective.
Richard
scamm any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity
game, Buy as least as possible. live and give as least as
possible
to the system.
Post by Nick Tapping
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Dave,
So bottom line, do you think that volunterism and good will in
our capitalist society is doing more good? or do you think that this
is only helping make the capitalism a success and pushing a
socialist revolution out of the way.
Post by Nick Tapping
In your case I think you don't care helping capitalism by
sepparating the recyclable garbage..
Post by Nick Tapping
to what extend should we be willing to volunteer ourselves in a
capitalist society, having our socialist revolution in mind, is it
good, is it bad.. appreciate your input.
Post by Nick Tapping
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:38:44
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by Nick Tapping
Yes, I have actually.
I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to
my
Post by Nick Tapping
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.
Although I don't have much of a choice about that.
Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour
that
Post by Nick Tapping
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our
rubbish,
Post by Nick Tapping
could be seen as surplus labour.
The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will
only
Post by Nick Tapping
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this
sacrifices
Post by Nick Tapping
while the owners of the means of production and distribution
are
Post by Nick Tapping
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought
about
Post by Nick Tapping
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
TetraedrÃf³nico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better
now
Post by Nick Tapping
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are
really
Post by Nick Tapping
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this
proves
Post by Nick Tapping
that people really is capable of taking personal
responsability
and
Post by Nick Tapping
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste
company do
Post by Nick Tapping
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way,
this
Post by Nick Tapping
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability
regardin
Post by Nick Tapping
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be
exteneded
to
Post by Nick Tapping
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-
friendly
Post by Nick Tapping
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
TetraedrÃf³nico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist
Post by Nick Tapping
problems.
Post by tetraedronico
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for
the
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to
sort
your
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass
and
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or
suffer
Post by Nick Tapping
any
Post by tetraedronico
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't
exactly
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class
Guardian
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original
thinker I
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really,
does
it.
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I
suppose
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of
that
Post by Nick Tapping
as
Post by tetraedronico
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of
people
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but
yet,
I
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people
are
not
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their
leaders
Post by Nick Tapping
to
Post by tetraedronico
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
_________
_
Post by Nick Tapping
Post by tetraedronico
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
Ãfâ?sÃ,¡SÃfÆ'Ã,© un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ã,¡SÃf© un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
Ã,¡SÃf© un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hud955
2007-10-28 13:19:03 UTC
Permalink
NICK wrote:
"you are right no-ones has activly encourage us to oil the wheels of
capitalism, but they have justified their own oiling of the wheels
of capitalism and [more importantly] derided people who have chosen
NOT to oil the wheels of capitalism. Its is this deriding of those
that choose to give as little support as they can to the wheels of
capitalism, that I have [mistakenly?] read as encouraging the
oiling of the wheels of capitalism
Post by Nick Tapping
you may like to blame capitalist for the woes of the world.
In a war its the soldier that shoots , the soldier has to accept
some responsibility, I live in a greedy world , where people let
there greed and selfishness run riot , they dont want to accept the
responsibility of there actions, the environmental damage of their
lifestyle, the suffering caused by their desire to eat other
sentient beings.....you are right, i have little respect for this
type of person , am i wrong in that?"

ME:
No I don't blame the capitalist for the woes of the world, I blame
the system of capitalism. Or rather I take the view, like Marx that
capitalism has outlived its usefulness and we no longer have to put
up with its disastrous consequences.

You are right: greed and selfishness, as you describe them, are
traits that people often exhibit in our world (along with
selflessness and kindness and co-operation). The case against the
capitalist system is simple: it uses physical coercion and puts
overwhelming economic pressure on people to make them behave in ways
that you call selfish and greedy. It also bamboozles them (us) into
complying with it through its ideology and increasingly
sophisticated propaganda machine. You won't stop that, no-matter
how much self-approval you continue to heap on yourself for
attempting to 'drop out.'

I "dropped out" too till I was 38; some of my friends are still
doing it; one of them has lived for the last ten years in a bender
up in the hills in Warwickwhire (but unlike you, he is not up
himself about it). So you are not the only one here with that kind
of background and experience. But having dropped out doesn't make
you a better person than anyone else, and it doesn't give you the
right to be abusive to people solely because their lifestyles and
ideas conflict with yours. When people pour contempt on others it is
usually only to build themselves up in their own estimation.

I'm bored to death with with philosophy too, Nick, but when you
persistently misuse words like "subjective" to justify your own
worldview, that has to be challenged.

I can't recall whether people actually "derided" you for trying not
to oil the wheels of capitalism, and if they did, that wasn't very
useful of them. Nevertheless, you've got this wrong (again): they
weren't criticising you for dropping out, they were criticising you
because it is a pretty useless thing to do beyond giving you,
personally, a sense of fulfilment. In fact, given how self-approving
you've shown yourself to be about it, your dropping out could be
seen as a perfectly selfish act. I think most socialists here would
argue that your time would have been much better spent in a social
rather than narrowly individual way, by agitating for a change in
the economic basis of society.

The capitalist state will tolerate a few people like yourself
dropping out, but it wouldn't tolerate a mass movement doing it
because that would interfere with profit production. Consider
yourself very lucky more people are NOT doing it!

So yes, in my book you are wrong to lose respect for people who eat
meat or cause environmental damage. Just as I don't blame
individual capitalists for the horrors of the capitalist system
(when I'm thinking clearly at any rate - sometimes my frustrations
get the better of me!) so I don't blame members of the working class
for supporting the system and behaving in ways that are destructive
to human life and happiness. If you were less concerned to pump
yourself up in your own eyes and more genuinely concerned for your
fellow workers, you might be a little more aware of the immense
pressures they (we) are labouring under and more tolerant of what
you regard as their (our) failings.

Regards

Richard
Post by Nick Tapping
There are certain truths we may face that doesnt make an objective
reality it means there are some truths which we can share, you wish
to call them objective truths thats your call, but they are truths
that we experience and realise at a personal level, ill call them
subjective, thats my call . im bored with repeating the logic at the
moment.
Post by Nick Tapping
Is an objective notion when we fart and blame somebody else?
whoops thats a motion isnt it, getting me words muddled up.
Nick Tapping
2007-10-28 19:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Lets get this straight Richard, Im definetly not the only person to be insulting on this forum am I?

On this particular thread it was started with sarcastic references about lentil eaters and 60s peanubutter eating hippys in leather sandal [or something as benial] and then was taken to a slamming" im sick of you kind of.... blah blah blah from trot finder aimed at Robin and those like him who want to give as little of their energy as possible to a system that is built on inequality, bloodshed and degradation. People that don't want to sell out to capitalisms toys and false material security. [we are very justified to do that and it does make our lives more revolutionary than the armchair socialists]

[my revolution is subjective, it started with me revolutioning my own life, taking a greater responsibility for my my actions, stripping away the social conditioning , revolutioning my values , my prioritys , my social relations, my relationship with wealth etc]

Im surprise of you because you are a so called therapist [its a pitty coz you have re-inforced my opinion that most proffesional therapists are tossers] being a therapist you should know all about accepting responsibility for ones actions yet you seem to want to blame the negative actions of people on to a system and want to ignore , fuck me im a stupid cunt so I go kill someone for me country cos Im a victim of capital.

So you are a therapist? A good one? One that understands the need to take responsibility for our actions? That its a very important step in our personal growth?

Do good therapist automatticly assume things about other people?

Because you assume that I live in a vacuum or a bubble and am not aware of the thousands of others like me, many much more hardcore than me! And you assume to know what i do or don't do in my social interactions , you are full of assumptions, and you are way, way of mark!

Richard I am embarrassed for you

Does capitalism force people to eat sentient beings?

Does capitalism force people to drive 4 x4s?

Im quite aware of the prevailing social conditions but we cant use it to excuse us from, or not accept the responsibility of our own actions.

Richard i don't think i am a wanker, unlike you I know I am a wanker. Thats probally the biggest difference between you and me.

----- Original Message -----
From: hud955
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 1:19 PM
Subject: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.



NICK wrote:
"you are right no-ones has activly encourage us to oil the wheels of
capitalism, but they have justified their own oiling of the wheels
of capitalism and [more importantly] derided people who have chosen
NOT to oil the wheels of capitalism. Its is this deriding of those
that choose to give as little support as they can to the wheels of
capitalism, that I have [mistakenly?] read as encouraging the
oiling of the wheels of capitalism
Post by Nick Tapping
you may like to blame capitalist for the woes of the world.
In a war its the soldier that shoots , the soldier has to accept
some responsibility, I live in a greedy world , where people let
there greed and selfishness run riot , they dont want to accept the
responsibility of there actions, the environmental damage of their
lifestyle, the suffering caused by their desire to eat other
sentient beings.....you are right, i have little respect for this
type of person , am i wrong in that?"

ME:
No I don't blame the capitalist for the woes of the world, I blame
the system of capitalism. Or rather I take the view, like Marx that
capitalism has outlived its usefulness and we no longer have to put
up with its disastrous consequences.

You are right: greed and selfishness, as you describe them, are
traits that people often exhibit in our world (along with
selflessness and kindness and co-operation). The case against the
capitalist system is simple: it uses physical coercion and puts
overwhelming economic pressure on people to make them behave in ways
that you call selfish and greedy. It also bamboozles them (us) into
complying with it through its ideology and increasingly
sophisticated propaganda machine. You won't stop that, no-matter
how much self-approval you continue to heap on yourself for
attempting to 'drop out.'

I "dropped out" too till I was 38; some of my friends are still
doing it; one of them has lived for the last ten years in a bender
up in the hills in Warwickwhire (but unlike you, he is not up
himself about it). So you are not the only one here with that kind
of background and experience. But having dropped out doesn't make
you a better person than anyone else, and it doesn't give you the
right to be abusive to people solely because their lifestyles and
ideas conflict with yours. When people pour contempt on others it is
usually only to build themselves up in their own estimation.

I'm bored to death with with philosophy too, Nick, but when you
persistently misuse words like "subjective" to justify your own
worldview, that has to be challenged.

I can't recall whether people actually "derided" you for trying not
to oil the wheels of capitalism, and if they did, that wasn't very
useful of them. Nevertheless, you've got this wrong (again): they
weren't criticising you for dropping out, they were criticising you
because it is a pretty useless thing to do beyond giving you,
personally, a sense of fulfilment. In fact, given how self-approving
you've shown yourself to be about it, your dropping out could be
seen as a perfectly selfish act. I think most socialists here would
argue that your time would have been much better spent in a social
rather than narrowly individual way, by agitating for a change in
the economic basis of society.

The capitalist state will tolerate a few people like yourself
dropping out, but it wouldn't tolerate a mass movement doing it
because that would interfere with profit production. Consider
yourself very lucky more people are NOT doing it!

So yes, in my book you are wrong to lose respect for people who eat
meat or cause environmental damage. Just as I don't blame
individual capitalists for the horrors of the capitalist system
(when I'm thinking clearly at any rate - sometimes my frustrations
get the better of me!) so I don't blame members of the working class
for supporting the system and behaving in ways that are destructive
to human life and happiness. If you were less concerned to pump
yourself up in your own eyes and more genuinely concerned for your
fellow workers, you might be a little more aware of the immense
pressures they (we) are labouring under and more tolerant of what
you regard as their (our) failings.

Regards

Richard
Post by Nick Tapping
There are certain truths we may face that doesnt make an objective
reality it means there are some truths which we can share, you wish
to call them objective truths thats your call, but they are truths
that we experience and realise at a personal level, ill call them
subjective, thats my call . im bored with repeating the logic at the
moment.
Post by Nick Tapping
Is an objective notion when we fart and blame somebody else?
whoops thats a motion isnt it, getting me words muddled up.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hud955
2007-10-28 23:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Tapping
Lets get this straight Richard, Im definetly not the only person
to be insulting on this forum am I?
Post by Nick Tapping
On this particular thread it was started with sarcastic references
about lentil eaters and 60s peanubutter eating hippys in leather
sandal [or something as benial] and then was taken to a slamming" im
sick of you kind of.... blah blah blah from trot finder aimed at
Robin and those like him who want to give as little of their
energy as possible to a system that is built on inequality,
bloodshed and degradation. People that don't want to sell out to
capitalisms toys and false material security. [we are very justified
to do that and it does make our lives more revolutionary than the
armchair socialists]


Me
Nick, please don't get me wrong on this. I'm not privately gunning
for you. I'm trying to respond to the debate and dodge the crap. I'm
focussing on your contribution because although I disagree with it -
bigtime - I think what you are saying is challenging and interesting
and worth engaging with.

I'm a biker and I also post on a couple of biker sites. (Guess how a
Marxian socialist comes across on an American biker site!!!!) And
yet the level of conversation on those sites is often more
intelligent and respectful than it has often been here of late.
Just a thought!
Post by Nick Tapping
[my revolution is subjective, it started with me revolutioning my
own life, taking a greater responsibility for my my actions,
stripping away the social conditioning , revolutioning my values ,
my prioritys , my social relations, my relationship with wealth etc]


Me:
That's a position I'm very familiar with in all sorts of forms and
guises. It was particularly popular in the 1960s and 70s. It's
reviving now especially among green activists and other
environmentalists. I'm still unconvinced it is anything but a
romantic retreat from the reality of capitalist exploitation and
real human suffering. It certainly is not engaging with it.

Good luck to you Nick. I mean that, but I don't see it being of
any value to anyone apart from yourself. While you are searching for
your bit of land to live on, the American and British capitalist
class will go on killing innocent Iraqis by the thousand; the third
world will continue to experience famine in the midst of plenty.
Adults and children will continue to die of starvation on the
streets of the USA surrounded by huge accumulations of wealth.
People will continue to live dreary unfulfilled lives, without
understanding why.

Living lives based on ideas like permaculture, self-sufficiency
living off the land or just dropping-out is not easy, I grant, but
it does have that romantic gloss to it which you have demonstrated
in your posts. Propagandising for socialism isn't romantic - or the
romance soon wears off. It's a hard slog, often depressingly slow
to show results, often frustrating, and bloody hard work. And of
course no-one knows whether we will get there before the whole
shebang goes sky high.
Post by Nick Tapping
Im surprise of you because you are a so called therapist [its a
pitty coz you have re-inforced my opinion that most proffesional
therapists are tossers] being a therapist you should know all about
accepting responsibility for ones actions yet you seem to want to
blame the negative actions of people on to a system and want to
ignore , fuck me im a stupid cunt so I go kill someone for me
country cos Im a victim of capital.

Me:
First thing, I was a professional counsellor. I'm not any more.

Taking personal responsibility is a difficult issue. It isn't
something innate. It has to be learned, and some people, because of
their histories and because of the circumstances of their lives
never learn to accept it. Very few of us learn to accept it
completely. One minute we are being adult, taking responsibility for
our actions, the next we are behaving like children. And neither of
these things is bad in itself (I'd hate to see us lose our childlike
curiosity for example); sometimes we do not have much control over
the matter; responsibility is something most of us have to strive
for.

'Taking responsibility' has a particular meaning in the context of
capitalist ideology. It means maintaining an isolated economic
independence for yourself and your family. It also insists on a
strict adherence to the rules of its own, equally isolating notions
of property. Capitalism insists on these things and does everything
it can to enforce them so long as they remain consistent with its
own interests. So even here, meaning is produced by class
interests. And this is the kind of responsibility that is taught
through propaganda in schools and the media and is embedded in the
general class ideology of our society. Taking responsibility for
other kinds of actions is permitted unless it theatens profit, but
there is little encouragement for it. As a socialist, however, I
regard my responsibility as a collective, not segregated one.

As far as soldiering is concerned: immature kids at a time in their
lives before their brains, their hormone systems and their
personalities are fully developed, are the targets of very clever
images promoted by army recruiting campaigns. These campaigns
particularly focus their recruiting on areas of high unemployment
and deprivation. Have you ever wondered why most British Regiments
have names deriving from the North of England, very rarely the
wealthy South-East? These campaigns are designed to key into the
kids fantasies, and offer them the security that their background
has not given them. Can you blame kids for being conned by this?
Really?

Then there is the other side of things. Some people become soldiers
and engage in combat because they have been so thoroughly saturated
with capitalist indoctrination that they genuinely believe that they
are doing the responsibile thing. If they don't believe it before
they join up, the intense brainwashing they receive once they're in
will do it for them.

(As an aside. I once saw a large poster in the window of the army
recruiting office in Spring Gardens, Manchester. It was promoting
the Queen Alexandra Nursing Corps. It showed a caring army nurse
administering some treatment to a soldier who was lying unconscious
on a trolley. I had to look twice, but I realised, she was giving
him ECT - electro convulsive therapy, which was a barbarous therapy
regularly used back in the 1970s to treat serious depression and
other kinds of mental illness. I think somebody boobed.)

By criticising people for eating sentient beings you are implicitly
assuming that they accept or 'know', like you, that in some sense it
is wrong, but do it anyway. Some people just don't see anything
wrong with it and can give you a whole battery of reasons why.
Eating meat is part of the culture they have grown up with. And
again, the meat industry is a pretty big one, and like any big
industry it has its marketing machine which encourages people to
consume - as always, in the interests of the capitalist producer.
issue.

It's an interesting term, 'sentient beings' - a Buddhist term.
Buddhism also teaches compassion. If you have compassion for
sentient beings like livestock animals, how come you are so
deficient in compassion for your fellow human beings - at least
those you disagree with and believe have not achieved the same level
of 'responsibility' as yourself?

Nick, It's dead easy to come across all holier-than-thou and
criticise people for not believing like you believe, or for not
accepting 'responsibility' in the particular way that you believe
you have. That's a very self-focussed attitude. I keep coming back
to this because it is the very opposite of what socialism is really
about. Socialism is about recognizing a collective interest and
moving towards a collective solution. Going off onto your plot of
land and trying to live outside the capitalist system - pretty much
an impossibility in any real way - is just closing your eyes to what
is going on in the world - even if you do it with a few others. It's
a nice idea if you can manage it, but that's about it.
Post by Nick Tapping
So you are a therapist? A good one? One that understands the
need to take responsibility for our actions? That its a very
important step in our personal growth?
Post by Nick Tapping
Do good therapist automatticly assume things about other people?
Because you assume that I live in a vacuum or a bubble and am not
aware of the thousands of others like me, many much more hardcore
than me! And you assume to know what i do or don't do in my social
interactions , you are full of assumptions, and you are way, way of
mark!

Me:
I'm not sure I'm totally clear what you are saying here Nick, but I
didn't say that you were not aware of other people who held similar
ideas to yourself. I said that there were people on this site that
you were calling twats and other things (myself included) who have
had the same kind of experiences as you and valued them in the same
way. I also pointed out that your experience, though you value it,
didn't make you special, in the rather glowing terms you presented
it or gave you the right to abuse others because they lacked it.
There are many kinds of valuable experience, and as a socialist I
particularly value those experiences that devleop class identity, or
a sense of connectedness to other people.

And let's get one thing straight. I am only a counsellor in relation
to my clients. I have a life outside that as well, where different
rules apply.
Post by Nick Tapping
Richard I am embarrassed for you
Does capitalism force people to eat sentient beings?
Does capitalism force people to drive 4 x4s?
Im quite aware of the prevailing social conditions but we cant
use it to excuse us from, or not accept the responsibility of our
own actions.
Post by Nick Tapping
Richard i don't think i am a wanker, unlike you I know I am a
wanker. Thats probally the biggest difference between you and me.

Me:
Nick, I don't think you are a wanker. It is not a term I would use
of anyone (well, not unless I got very thoroughly pissed at them and
lost my temper - and that doesn't happen too often - :-) ).
Calling someone a 'wanker' is a judgement, it's not a description of
who they are - which is always very complex. If you are saying I
have needs and insecurities, then, of course you would be right.
Most people are fucked up by capitalism in one way or another, you,
me and the rest of us.

Take care

Richard
Nick Tapping
2007-10-29 06:58:37 UTC
Permalink
--
Post by Nick Tapping
[my revolution is subjective, it started with me revolutioning my
own life, taking a greater responsibility for my my actions,
stripping away the social conditioning , revolutioning my values ,
my prioritys , my social relations, my relationship with wealth etc]

Richard
That's a position I'm very familiar with in all sorts of forms and
guises. It was particularly popular in the 1960s and 70s. It's
reviving now especially among green activists and other
environmentalists. I'm still unconvinced it is anything but a
romantic retreat from the reality of capitalist exploitation and
real human suffering. It certainly is not engaging with it.

Nick writes;

is working in a factory making commoditys, coming home feeling too knackered to give quality time to your family or community , postivly engaging with capitalist exploitation?

Richard wrote
Good luck to you Nick. I mean that, but I don't see it being of
any value to anyone apart from yourself. While you are searching for
your bit of land to live on, the American and British capitalist
class will go on killing innocent Iraqis by the thousand; the third
world will continue to experience famine in the midst of plenty.
Adults and children will continue to die of starvation on the
streets of the USA surrounded by huge accumulations of wealth.
People will continue to live dreary unfulfilled lives, without
understanding why.

Nick Writes

I don't see the capitalist class killing people in Iraq

Should i volunteer to join the army, so i can shoot people to actively engage with capitalism?

Should i actively enjoy the fruits of unfair trade and labour laws that create such inequality around the world to engage positively with capitalism?

Richard wrote

Living lives based on ideas like permaculture, self-sufficiency
living off the land or just dropping-out is not easy, I grant, but
it does have that romantic gloss to it which you have demonstrated
in your posts. Propagandising for socialism isn't romantic - or the
romance soon wears off. It's a hard slog, often depressingly slow
to show results, often frustrating, and bloody hard work. And of
course no-one knows whether we will get there before the whole
shebang goes sky high.

Nick writes

Statisticly [objectively] you are wasting your time , the percentage of people who actively support socialism has dropped in the last 100 years ago. The WSM has had negative growth during the last 100 years despite the rises in population

Richard you write a load of [how to say it politely] crap.

Your biggest problem, and please take notice of this is your presumptious nature, which is quite common among the middle aged and oldsters [people who think they know everything]

In previous post you have presumed what makes me angry.. way of mark, continually presume you know what i do through my social interactions and in this one you are presuming that i don't know the realitys of living outside of society , presume that im going to in the future take up perma culture, are you assuming im a youngster too?

You are presuming that Im a socialist too!

And although i would like the same end result as the WSM my road to that conclusion is non Marxist . i could write a list of activitys that i do, have done and plan to do, to try and wake people up but i could either be[ accused of] bragging or lieing so why bother .

Theres also the example of teaching by example.... Stop presuming Richard, not because it gets up my goat but it will actually make you a better person and better therapist, it will alow you to receive information with an unprejudiced mind, it will help you to learn easier Most of your presumption are wrong so please try to rope them in and concentrate on what you know about the situation not what you surmise, we will go much further, much quicker, much easier

Nice intellectual dribble about the excuses for not taking responsibility.

Most of the kids that i knew who went to the military were little thugs that enjoyed beating people to a pulp. Some of em kicked me to a pulp as well.

But bless em hey, they know not what they do [not that the familys of the innocent people

that they shoot will find comfort in it]

My older brother wasn't but he join the intelligence corps , he was considered the intelligent one of the family went to grammar etc, why an intelligent lad was fooled and a thicko like me not, ill let you surmise [objective analise of intelligence?]

Richard wrote
By criticising people for eating sentient beings you are implicitly
assuming that they accept or 'know', like you, that in some sense it
is wrong, but do it anyway. Some people just don't see anything
wrong with it and can give you a whole battery of reasons why.
Eating meat is part of the culture they have grown up with. And
again, the meat industry is a pretty big one, and like any big
industry it has its marketing machine which encourages people to
consume - as always, in the interests of the capitalist producer.
issue.

It's an interesting term, 'sentient beings' - a Buddhist term.
Buddhism also teaches compassion. If you have compassion for
sentient beings like livestock animals, how come you are so
deficient in compassion for your fellow human beings - at least
those you disagree with and believe have not achieved the same level
of 'responsibility' as yourself?

Nick writes;

Richard Firstly, mostly most of your thoughts about bad behaviour is around justification through ignorance [is this why you were attracted to being a therapist?]. While i accept ignorance, i cannot condone it, and I will not condone it, ignorance [god we all suffer from it] is universal, what we don't know is far, far greater than what we do know. I do by best [or I like to think i do] to fight ignorance on many levels. I don't think ignorance or ignorant behaviour should be condonded or encouraged.

Do not presume that i lack compassion for fellow humans.

secondly i dont need the dribble of explanations about the working of capitalism, its just boring man, im not saying its not true, its just repeated and repeated over and over through the decades, i find it so condensending , its if you think im not aware of this, give me a break Richard, im a big boy i read my Das Kapital 30 years ago.

Probbally, well surely i am wasting my time posting on this forum and may be part responsible for putting some people of the objective of a non monetary system , I regret this and will probally refrain and control my postings much more in the future.

i apolagise if I have had a negative affect on this forum.

Never believe you understand things, its the believe that you know that keeps you in ignorance.

luv,

Nick

Richard wrote

Nick, It's dead easy to come across all holier-than-thou and
criticise people for not believing like you believe, or for not
accepting 'responsibility' in the particular way that you believe
you have. That's a very self-focussed attitude. I keep coming back
to this because it is the very opposite of what socialism is really
about. Socialism is about recognizing a collective interest and
moving towards a collective solution. Going off onto your plot of
land and trying to live outside the capitalist system - pretty much
an impossibility in any real way - is just closing your eyes to what
is going on in the world - even if you do it with a few others. It's
a nice idea if you can manage it, but that's about it.

Nick writes,

again this is you presuming what my intentions are and they are again well off mark.

I have sometimes misinterpreted your writing and I'm sorry that I have done, but I will probably continue to do so, sometime, especially when you are condescending.

Also don't make the mistake that people learn thru identical proccesses

Nick


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hud955
2007-10-29 10:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Tapping
Nick writes;
is working in a factory making commoditys, coming home feeling
too knackered to give quality time to your family or community ,
postivly engaging with capitalist exploitation?

Richard
No, but identifying why this unnecessary imposition on working-class
life is happening, helping people to see what is happening, and
encouraging them to get rid of the economic system that is causing
it, is.
Post by Nick Tapping
Nick Writes
I don't see the capitalist class killing people in Iraq.
C'mon Nick.
The motive behind the Iraq war was control of oil resources and
revenue by the American and British capitalist class. It is being
funded by the American and British capitalist class - they're
putting billions of dollars and pounds into it. It couldn't happen
otherwise. The war was and is being planned by the capitalist
class's governmental representatives; their behalf to ensure the
control of oil resources and 'revenues' (profit). American school
children are brainwashed by Capitalist ideology and propaganda into
believing that fighting on behalf of the capitalist class is
the 'patriotic' thing to do. Since the war the American Capitalist
class especially has put literally trillions of dollars into
propaganda. They've put a lot more into developing what they call
PR techniques (aka brainwashing techniques) for 'controlling the
public mind.' At one time, just after the war one third of American
school books had been written by business interests and promoted a
business ethos, which included, of course a military one to maintain
and extend their business objectives overseas). The capitalist
class own and control all the major media outlets and promote their
version of reality through them, till people can hardly see what is
in front of their own eyes. You don't see the capitalist class in
Iraq?

Nick
Post by Nick Tapping
Should i volunteer to join the army, so i can shoot people to
actively engage with capitalism?
Post by Nick Tapping
Should i actively enjoy the fruits of unfair trade and labour
laws that create such inequality around the world to engage
positively with capitalism?


Richard
Don't be daft Nick. No-one has ever suggested you should do these
things.
Post by Nick Tapping
Nick writes
Statisticly [objectively] you are wasting your time , the
percentage of people who actively support socialism has dropped in
the last 100 years ago. The WSM has had negative growth during the
last 100 years despite the rises in population.


Richard
No, that's not the case; it has always been small (which is why it
can be depressing at times being a socialist) , but it's numbers
have varied considerably over time with respect to population. There
is no denying that there is not much interest in socialism right
now. But we do know that nothing lasts for ever, not even economic
systsms. And as Marx pointed out, history goes on behind the backs
of people. Revolutionary movements can build suddenly and rapidly.
It has happened before. That it is a waste of time is just your
assertion Nick. You cannot predict the future in this way. We
don't know if it will succeed before capitalism wipes us of the
planet, but the effort is worthwhile. Better to make the attempt in
my view that to retreat into one's own private world. People might
feel clean living off the land, Nick, untainted by trying to to buy
into capitalism. But that's all

Nick
Richard you write a load of [how to say it politely] crap.
Post by Nick Tapping
Your biggest problem, and please take notice of this is your
presumptious nature, which is quite common among the middle aged and
oldsters [people who think they know everything]


Me
Oh boy Nick, for one of the most arrogant people I've come across on
the web recently, you do take the biscuit. You lecture to people,
you call them names, you assert your views and don't read theirs -
with any degree of attention anyway. With almost every word you
speak you demonstrate exactly the same characteristics that you
accuse other of. What about your presuming to know what my attitude
is here: I think I know everything, do I? And that is because
I'm 'old' is it? Where do you get these sweeping generalisations
from Nick? 'This is 'my biggest problem...' is it Nick. I must say
that for someone who has known me for such a short time and only
over the web, you are remakably insightful. LOL.
Nick
In previous post you have presumed what makes me angry.. way of
mark, continually presume you know what i do through my social
interactions and in this one you are presuming that i don't know
the realitys of living outside of society , presume that im going
to in the future take up perma culture, are you assuming im a
youngster too?
Post by Nick Tapping
You are presuming that Im a socialist too!
Me
Nick, I think you should buy yourself a pair of reading glasses. I
never said any of these things.


Nick
Post by Nick Tapping
And although i would like the same end result as the WSM my road
to that conclusion is non Marxist . i could write a list of
activitys that i do, have done and plan to do, to try and wake
people up but i could either be[ accused of] bragging or lieing so
why bother


Theres also the example of teaching by example.... Stop presuming
Richard, not because it gets up my goat but it will actually make
you a better person and better therapist, it will alow you to
receive information with an unprejudiced mind, it will help you to
learn easier Most of your presumption are wrong so please try to
rope them in and concentrate on what you know about the situation
not what you surmise, we will go much further, much quicker, much
easier

Richard
Arrogant, you, Nick? No! Surely!


Nick
Post by Nick Tapping
Nice intellectual dribble about the excuses for not taking
responsibility.
Post by Nick Tapping
Most of the kids that i knew who went to the military were
little thugs that enjoyed beating people to a pulp. Some of em
kicked me to a pulp as well.
Post by Nick Tapping
But bless em hey, they know not what they do [not that the
familys of the innocent people.
Post by Nick Tapping
that they shoot will find comfort in it]
Richard
And how do you think they got that way, Nick? Looking for causes -
explaining why people behave in the way they do is not to condone
that behaviour. Just getting all self-righteous about it isn't
going to change it. And that's what I'm interested in. Just
judging people (maybe even validly) is a barren excercise and
changes nothing.

Nick
Post by Nick Tapping
My older brother wasn't but he join the intelligence corps , he
was considered the intelligent one of the family went to grammar
etc, why an intelligent lad was fooled and a thicko like me not, ill
let you surmise [objective analise of intelligence?]

Richard
The brighter ones are susceptible in other ways, Nick. Secondary
and Highher educational institutions are really excellent academies
of indoctrination. Get someone intellectually engaged in a class
room six hours a day, five days a week and you are in a good
position to pump a lot of ideological garbage into their heads. In
America they call this section of the population 'the Political
Class' and it is quite consciously the purpose of the American
establishment to mould their minds to a business-friendly point of
view.



Nick
Post by Nick Tapping
Do not presume that i lack compassion for fellow humans.
Me
You have demonstrated a great lack of it in many of your posts,
Nick. I am just going by the evidence of my own eyes.

Nick
Post by Nick Tapping
Never believe you understand things, its the believe that you
know that keeps you in ignorance.

Me
You should read your own posts Nick and draw a conclusion from your
own advice.

Regards

Richard
Nick Tapping
2007-10-29 20:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Richard
No, but identifying why this unnecessary imposition on working-class
life is happening, helping people to see what is happening, and
encouraging them to get rid of the economic system that is causing
it, is.
nick
Who says I don't do this, me? Or is this one of your assumptions Richard that i dont?
richard
C'mon Nick.
The motive behind the Iraq war was control of oil resources and
revenue by the American and British capitalist class. Etc etc.

Nick

Never would I deny that Richard.

If i persuade a person to murder my wife because she is an adulterer and offer them money to do so, and they agree and kill her. We are both responsible for her death. Are we not?

Soldiers are responsible for their actions , even in military and capitalists court.

You keep justifying negative actions, you seem to be saying people should not be responsible for their actions. I don't understand that.

I do understand that the social conditions are terrible but we still should accept responsibility for our actions.

Do you ever wonder at the myriad of possibilitys why the peoples rule has not taken over capitalism rule?

Try this one. For peoples rule the people need to mature enough to accept responsibility of their actions. Do you agree with that?

We can justify anything, justification does have its place but if I forever excuse my child for bad behaviour it wont grow up to accept responsibility for its behaviour




[prev] nick
the last 100 years ago. The WSM has had negative growth during the
last 100 years despite the rises in population.

Richard
No, that's not the case; it has always been small (which is why it
can be depressing at times being a socialist) , but it's numbers
have varied considerably over time with respect to population. There
is no denying that there is not much interest in socialism right
now.

Nick

In other words yes Nick there hasn't been any real growth in the last 100 years.


Richard

But we do know that nothing lasts for ever, not even economic
systsms. And as Marx pointed out, history goes on behind the backs
of people. Revolutionary movements can build suddenly and rapidly.
It has happened before. That it is a waste of time is just your
assertion Nick. You cannot predict the future in this way.

Nick

Sorry did i try to predict the future in my post? Or are you assuming i am?

We
don't know if it will succeed before capitalism wipes us of the
planet, but the effort is worthwhile. Better to make the attempt in
my view that to retreat into one's own private world. People might
feel clean living off the land, Nick, untainted by trying to to buy
into capitalism. But that's all

Have I mentioned living off the land , retreating into a private world? No i havnt. More assuming!





Richard
Oh boy Nick, for one of the most arrogant people I've come across on
the web recently, you do take the biscuit. You lecture to people,

Nick

A lecture is usually a lengthy discourse, do I do lengthy discourses .... rarely , i tend to use short examples and uncomftable questions unlike you who in the last post began with a 250 word discourse justifying the soldiers role and blaming their activitys on capitalists , you then wrote another lengthy discourse on the same subject later on in the same post. This was despite me telling you I was already aquantied with this kind of thought in my previous post which in the post before you gave a long discourse on a very similar subject.

Sorry I lecture people, no sorry thats you, I use sarcasm.


Richard

you call them names, you assert your views and don't read theirs -
with any degree of attention anyway. With almost every word you
speak you demonstrate exactly the same characteristics that you
accuse other of. What about your presuming to know what my attitude
is here: I think I know everything, do I? And that is because
I'm 'old' is it? Where do you get these sweeping generalisations
from Nick? 'This is 'my biggest problem...'

Nick

Never said you were old and theres nothing wrong with being old, i said assuming things is very common amongst older people

It is your biggest problem Richard you assume things... I started this conversation [?] saying that we should give as little labour as possible to the capitalist system and we should buy into their commodity market as little as possible. I related a time in my life when I didn't have electric or running water and described it as a most qualitive time..... you assume that im spouting reclousism and living on the land, thats a big assumption! Is it not Richard? Have I ever mentioned growing vegatables and not interacting with the community[s] have I Richard? Have I? But you in post after post keep goin on about living in bubbles and growing veggys. Wheer do these assumption s come from..... Ill tell you, it comes from not reading peoples posts properlly and assumptions Richard >

Richard
Nick, I think you should buy yourself a pair of reading glasses. I
never said any of these things.

Nick

So why are you harpin on about growing vegetable and not engaging with society. ? Im not.

Richard right now i give as little of my labour as I can to the capitalist system and i buy as little as possible into their commodity market , yet i live on one of the biggest housing estates in Europe. When i move here 18 months ago we had a youth problem and despite being 50 and weighing a little less than 9 stone I was the only one in the blocs that confronted them. Despite my nieghbors being ignorant i have forced them all to say hello to me, if theres trouble now im the one they trust, even the youths show me respect [though i wont be surprised to get a good kicking one night] I don't live in bubbles, i prefer to live in tribes but its not always like that for me ..... my life [as ive mentioned] is revolution my only real interest is in social change... At the moment my living ro
om is filled with banners reading such things as" greed is wanting more than your fare share", "how much of the planet do you want to consume?" , "Capitalism Consumes", etc . These i hang around roundabouts for the rush hour traffic. This is what im doing now, what i have done before is different and what ill do in the future will be different

You want to blame a system not its people

I choose to blame both

You carry on plodding away doing the same thing I choose to explore, experiment and have fun!

We can understand why crimes are committed but we should show the offender that commiting crimes is wrong.

I can accept that I come across as arrogant to you, no problem. I don't assume what kind of person you are Richard, but you come across as some lower comftable middle class who has romantic and pious pity , even secret envy of the working classes. Let me say something you may or may not know but the working class stink as much as the capitalist class.

Shall we end this stupid conversation here and not embarrass this forum anymore with our pettiness?

nick


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hud955
2007-10-30 01:20:13 UTC
Permalink
--- In ***@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Tapping" <***@...>
wrote:

Nick wrote:
you come across as some lower comftable middle class who has
romantic and pious pity , even secret envy of the working classes.
Let me say something you may or may not know but the working class
stink as much as the capitalist class.

Me:
LOL. Always wanting to personalise things, Nick! And once again,
you are quite wrong. :-) Take a tip: you shouldn't judge so
easily by appearances. OK, I'll tell you. I've spent my life
travelling between the extremes of both worlds: I grew up as a
street kid on a tough council housing estate, but later went on to
board at an expensive public school. Sometimes life plays funny
tricks like that on you. I have close friends who are chippies and
those that own multi-million pound businesses.

So, let me tell you, my friend, neither the working class (as you
define them), nor the capitalist class stink - Oh indeed, some do -
to judge by their actions and attitudes - but that is just a crass
opinion of little value in itself. There are two things that have
impressed me most about people - from all walks of life. The first
is that people are products of their circumstance. And the second is
that despite the bitterness and violence those circumstances often
create there is unbounded co-operation and kindness to be found,
everywhere, even in the most unlikely of places.

So, you want to put me in a social class? Go ahead! I could do
with some help with that one. But on reflection, maybe not. Social
classes are not very meaningful. And your fantasies are very much
your own.

Economically, though, there is no question that I'm working class,
because that can be be anything on the social scale from an
agricultural labourer, or a painter and decorator to an office
worker, a small trader or someone from the professions. I've been
all those things. And it's with the working class that my loyalites
lie. Everything else is an irrelevance.

Nick
Post by Nick Tapping
Shall we end this stupid conversation here and not embarrass
this forum anymore with our pettiness?

Me
Yes, I think so too.

Cheers, Nick

Best wishes

Richard
Nick Tapping
2007-10-27 19:39:54 UTC
Permalink
It seemed kinda relavant so i cut and pasted from this weeks schnews. bet you meat eaters wont even bother to read it.


SENSE OF HUMMUS


WHY BEING VEGAN IS PART OF THE SOLUTION


Dish out the tofu and crack open yet another oversized tub of hummus. It's
time to ditch the dairy and celebrate Word Vegan Week which kicks off
this Saturday (27th). Although you'd be joining a growing movement (now
quarter of a million strong in the UK), meat consumption has increased
four fold in the past fifty years and now livestock outnumbers humans
three to one! Yet 850 million people still go hungry worldwide with an
estimated five million children dying each year due to malnutrition. The
rearing of farm animals has forced millions of small farmers off the
land and the agricultural techniques employed are having an ever more
harmful effect on our planet. OK, so maybe the vegan thing is going
through a bit of a rebrand at the mo', but as well as being about
respecting the life of all the living creatures with which we share
out planet, veganism is also one way we can tackle food poverty and
climate change.

Take the forests (Please! International logging corporations especially
welcome!). Trees are essential storers of carbon dioxide and help
to regulate our climate - but are being chopped down at the rate of
13 million hectares a year. Already almost one-third of the world's
forests have been converted to agriculture use and the World Resources
Institute reckons that 60% of current deforestation involves clearing
the way for food production. One fifth of this is being used to graze
cattle and another 10% is utilised for grain production to feed the
beasts themselves.

But of course, land in the UK is much more valuable if you build on
it - so most of the feed for our livestock is imported from abroad.
Europe as a whole imports 70% of its protein for cattle feed, leading
to one European Parliament report sating that, "Europe can feed its
people but not its farm animals." Some six million acres of land in
Brazil is being used to grow soya beans for animals in Europe alone
- at the same time as 20 million Brazilians suffer from malnutrition.
In fact it takes ten times more land to produce one kilo of protein
from meat than its does from soya. "If present trends of meat-eating
continue" says science writer, Colin Tudge, "then by 2050 the world's
livestock will be consuming as much as 4 billion people do." A plant
based diet requires just 20% of the land of that required
by an omnivore.


TAKING THE PESCATARIAN


And its not just the land that's the problem. Fish-munching 'veggies'
should beware that more than a quarter of all the world's fisheries are
fully exploited. In Canada at least 140 distinct varieties of salmon
are already extinct and many more dolphins, turtles and seals are caught
up and killed in giant fishing nets. Not that all the fish caught is
eaten - biologist Lee Alverson calculates that around 27 million tonnes
of fish are wasted every year because they are the wrong kind or size
for the fussy supermarket shopper (that's more than the total amount of
fish eaten in 1950). Shrimp boats that drag the bottom of the sea are
the most wasteful, scooping up 10 kilos of other marine life for every
one kilo of shrimp that's actually used.

Last November the United Nations Food & Agriculture Organisation reported
that livestock production accounts for 18% of greenhouse gas emissions
- more than all the world's transport combined! Head of the FAO's
Information Unit, Henning Steinfeld says that "livestock are one of the
most significant contributors to today's most serious environmental
problems. Urgent action is required to remedy the situation."

Animal foods account for most of the energy used in agriculture, sometimes
up to 20 times more energy per 'edible tonne' than grain production!
Housing pigs and chickens in huge windowless sheds requires loads of
energy for artificial ventilation, conveyor belts and electric lighting.
You don't need refrigeration or freezers to store yer fresh veg!

The fleshy tastes of an increasingly weaAnimal foods account for most of
the energy used in agriculture, sometimes up to 20 times more energy
per 'edible tonne' than grain production! Housing pigs and chickens
in huge windowless sheds requires loads of energy for artificial
ventilation, conveyor belts and electric lighting. You don't need
refrigeration or freezers to store yer fresh veg! If you can get a
perfectly healthy diet from a vegan diet (and you can) why kill animals
to feed ourselves? Pigs have to be given powerful antibiotics during
their short (six months) lives, in an attempt to tackle the diseases
rife in the filthy battery conditions in which over 95% of them are kept.
Poultry farmers send 800 million chickens to slaughter each year in the
UK, most of which are kept in huge sheds containing up to 40,000 birds.
Two thirds of all eggs are produced by battery chickens which have to
live in an area smaller than an A4 piece of paper, even though their
wingspan is four times bigger. The more rustic sounding 'barn egg' laying
chicken gets an A3 sized bit of paper to live on whilst to call a chicken
'free range' all the bird must have is 'access to the outdoors' during
day light hours (on the way to the slaughter house, perhaps?).

Then there's the torture-in-a-tin that is foie-gras, where ducks and
geese are force fed until their livers swell ten times its normal size.
The French polish off 30 million ducks a year in order to munch on this
'delicacy' and Viva! is running a campaign to outlaw the cruel industry
- check ww.viva.org.uk/campaigns/foiegras/index.html for more info
about the campaign.
----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Tapping
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


the best we can do is withdraw our labour from any capitalist [work for the public service or go self employed], scamm any money you can , and dont , dont buy into the commodity game, Buy as least as possible. live and give as least as possible to the system.
Nick
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Dave,
So bottom line, do you think that volunterism and good will in our capitalist society is doing more good? or do you think that this is only helping make the capitalism a success and pushing a socialist revolution out of the way.
In your case I think you don't care helping capitalism by sepparating the recyclable garbage..
to what extend should we be willing to volunteer ourselves in a capitalist society, having our socialist revolution in mind, is it good, is it bad.. appreciate your input.

Tetraedrónico

----- Mensaje original ----
De: balmer_dave <***@yahoo.co.uk>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:38:44
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Yes, I have actually.

I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to my
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.

Although I don't have much of a choice about that.

Your point is a valid one though, I can see how unpaid labour that
benefits the capitalist class overall ie sorting out our rubbish,
could be seen as surplus labour.

The bastards will commodity anything, including `good will'.
Post by tetraedronico
Geez by the way, I wonder if us volunteering this way could be
beneficial to the society.
Post by tetraedronico
By this I mean, if we keep volunteering this way, it will only
make capitalism successful. we will keep making this sacrifices
while the owners of the means of production and distribution are
filling more and more their pockets. Have you ever thought about
this Dave, what do you think?
Post by tetraedronico
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:43:31
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to
Capitalist problems.
Post by tetraedronico
Yes it's true, thanks your comment, it makes me feel better now
that you just reminded me that indeed a lot of people are really
taking this kind of personal responsability. I think this proves
that people really is capable of taking personal responsability and
that they don't need leaders to do this.
Post by tetraedronico
By the way in my town, nobody do this because the waste company do
this for us, they profit from this of course. In this way, this
company is not encouraging to take personal responsability regardin
g this matter of recycling. I think this dilema can be exteneded to
many aspects of our lives, where the cost of being eco-friendly
falls into our pockets at a greater price.
Post by tetraedronico
Regards.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 13:20:34
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
But people are prepared to do this kind of thing though for the
greater good of society.
Where I live we have a recycling thing where you have to sort your
rubbish out and separate your paper from your plastic, glass and
tins etc.
It is a pain in the arse and you don't get paid for it or suffer
any
Post by tetraedronico
penalty for not doing it, but everybody does. And I don't exactly
live in a neighbourhood of the chattering middle-class Guardian
reading liberals, like George Orwell.
Although we have to respect him as a bit of an original thinker I
suppose.
Even my lodger, who is a bit of an eco-terrorists really, does it.
We will all need to make a objective analysis of all the
consequences of the choices that we have available to us and
choose
Post by tetraedronico
the one with the maximum overall utility.
Even if what we feel is useful may be subjective, but I suppose
there is nothing to stop us making an objective analysis of that
as
Post by tetraedronico
well.
Post by tetraedronico
My point is that today we have a massive movement of people
concerned by the climate change and the energy crisis but yet, I
could be wrong, but I have a strong impression that people are not
taking personal responsability and they're waiting their leaders
to
Post by tetraedronico
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ ___
Post by tetraedronico
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde
vivimos.
Post by tetraedronico
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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balmer_dave
2007-10-27 15:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi tetraedronico

I think the issue is that people can be socially responsible or just
social. They can be prepared to make `sacrifices' or volunteer their
own labour for the greater good of society and as members of that
society themselves for their own good.

Whether or not this can be explained as a cultural conditioning that
benefits capitalism or that it is part of a social instinct is
contentious I suppose.

Either way we can I think consider it as something that is positive
as this is the type of behaviour that would be required in
socialism. Capitalism will however take advantage and exploit
anything that it can get its hands on.

There are probably activities that charities engage in that probably
benefit the capitalist class but not enough for the capitalists to
fully fund it themselves, out of taxation normally.

Some workers can thus believe that something essential needs to be
done and as it isn't, do it themselves for nothing. This can involve
a worker working an extra hours overtime and donating that to a
charity, thus working for 'nothing'. Giving the proceeds of their
labour to another charity worker so that they can perform some task
that may be left undone otherwise.

Or they may even just do that work themselves like repairing
footpaths in the countryside or something, but I suppose for some
that can be fun or un-alienated labour. The capitalist are probably
quite happy to see all this kind of thing carry on.

Not all `charitable activities' meet with their approval however eg
Amnesty International which in the UK doesn't have a tax free
status. Unlike the society for the prevention of cruelty to donkey's.

I think many charity workers are aware that they are being taken
advantage of. Unfortunately they don't take their philosophy of
volunteer labour and from each according to their ability and to
each according to need to its ultimate conclusion.

Instead they propose that charities within capitalism can provide
solutions to problems created by a ruling and owning class that is
hell bent on nothing else but acquiring more wealth.

And you can get these ridiculous situations where workers collect
money to buy some CAT scanner for a children's hospital that would
have been paid out of taxation anyway thus enabling the capitalist
class to purchase a few extra cluster bombs to drop on children in
Iraq.

Although I am not really sure that medical care can come out of
surplus value as it is used to restore and maintain the labour power
of the working class and therefore theoretically must come out of
necessary labour time, or from wages deducted at source. Even if it
benefits the capitalist class themselves to have a healthy workforce
and they are therefore happy to facilitate it as efficiently and
cheaply as possible.

Sections of the capitalist class in the US are pissed off because
they have to pay their workers that much more than in other
countries so that they can obtain an often-inferior healthcare
system.

A nationalised free at the point of access healthcare system is
probably good for the workers in capitalism. I think it would be a
bit daft to object to it because it was incidentally beneficial to
the capitalist class as well.

I think you can apply that conclusion to other areas as well,
obviously with caution.

Again the capitalist class will ruthlessly take advantage of the
consciences of the working class. So they can drive the wages of
nurses down to the minimum knowing damn well that in a strike the
nurses would blink first rather than see people die.

So the `good' are taken advantage of by the `bad', that is how the
game is set up and it is the ugly face of capitalism.
Post by tetraedronico
Dave,
So bottom line, do you think that volunterism and good will in our
capitalist society is doing more good? or do you think that this is
only helping make the capitalism a success and pushing a socialist
revolution out of the way.
Post by tetraedronico
In your case I think you don't care helping capitalism by
sepparating the recyclable garbage..
Post by tetraedronico
to what extend should we be willing to volunteer ourselves in a
capitalist society, having our socialist revolution in mind, is it
good, is it bad.. appreciate your input.
Post by tetraedronico
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:38:44
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
Yes, I have actually.
I think I may be `volunteering' a portion of my working day to my
employers and suspect them of taking financial advantage of it.
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 19:43:13 UTC
Permalink
The devil is in the details.
For example, I have to confess, I'm in love with my 46 inch LCD Tv and my suv, I know, it's fetishism.. . it's not a necessity other than for my ego, but I'm willing to work one hour more for a month to get and enjoy it. If this sort of commodities won't be available in a socialist society that is willing to pay the price of working more to enjoy it then I guess this is the reason why so many people reject these theories. I believe a socialist society will have the option to enjoy this sort of opullence. If a capitalist society is doing this right now with relative success, why a socialist won't on an even larger escale?

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Marcos Colome <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 15:15:01
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

That is the reason why we have said, that socialism can not be built without
the desires of the majority of the working class of the world, and also the
bourgeois ideology has affected the minds of the workers and the human being
all over the earth. Socialism is the elimination of commodities, and the
elimination fo capitalist mareket, commodities is the heart of the
capitalist society, the purpose of socialism is put in practice the
principle of each acording to their needs .........
Post by tetraedronico
I may agree with your notition that wealth doesn't bring hapiness but
many people won't agree, the important thing is Choice, people in Africa and
other marginal areas around the world don't have other choice than living in
missery. The key is that a socialist society can give you the choice of
being as oppulent as your society really wants given the amount of work and
resources that you want to invest in satisfying your craving for oppulence,
this will be a free market of living standards. I can imagine a world were
some places people are going to work more and live better and some other
places where people work much less but may only have basic commodities, but
they have the choice of moving wherever they please, they will not be
imprisoned to the piece of desertic land they were born in.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:14:43
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
yeah, I was talking to a green representative about the future , he saw us
as scrapping the car and replacing it with individual flying machines.
Lets get real, for the whole world to enjoy the opulance of the english
lower middle classes we would need a much, much smaller populace than we
have now. our eco system just cant handle it.
Anyway , its a bourguios philosophy that human satisfaction comes from
material wealth, the idea that happiness , contentment and richness of human
experience comes from things outside of ourselves is a result of
objectivity.
One myth we need to smash is that human betterment comes from the
accumalation of material wealth.
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist
society will be one where people have to share everything including their
tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they have
to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We need to
demistify that notion.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
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____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos.
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Marcos Colome
2007-10-26 20:01:05 UTC
Permalink
I do not know if you have understood the concept of commodity.There are a
few people in this world that have a plasma television and a SUV, there are
billions of people living in hunger and poverty, you can not look the
worlld thru own eyes. I lived in NY, Chicago and Canada many years and I
never needed a car, I enjoyed traveling in a train reading a book, and the
money that I was going to spend in a car I use it for something else, we
never watched television, we wer always going out with friends, and going
to parties meeting and conferences, or doing something esle, going to the
library to read, or to buy books in bookstores, or going out to restaurants,
in California everybody needs a car, because the car industry created
those conditions, even more, they purhcased all the trains transportation
companies and proposed to create freeway, and I have never purchased a new
car, I purchased one several years ago, and I have rebuilt them completely
as a new one, and it is much better than the new one. We all have different
considerations about life, for me a car and a television is not very
important in my life. When I was younger there was a car park in front of my
father house and I never used it, I preferred to go out with my friends and
walk around the whole town, and talk about politic in a public park, or
discuss about Marx and Engels books
Post by tetraedronico
The devil is in the details.
For example, I have to confess, I'm in love with my 46 inch LCD Tv and my
suv, I know, it's fetishism.. . it's not a necessity other than for my ego,
but I'm willing to work one hour more for a month to get and enjoy it. If
this sort of commodities won't be available in a socialist society that is
willing to pay the price of working more to enjoy it then I guess this is
the reason why so many people reject these theories. I believe a socialist
society will have the option to enjoy this sort of opullence. If a
capitalist society is doing this right now with relative success, why a
socialist won't on an even larger escale?
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 15:15:01
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
That is the reason why we have said, that socialism can not be built without
the desires of the majority of the working class of the world, and also the
bourgeois ideology has affected the minds of the workers and the human being
all over the earth. Socialism is the elimination of commodities, and the
elimination fo capitalist mareket, commodities is the heart of the
capitalist society, the purpose of socialism is put in practice the
principle of each acording to their needs .........
Post by tetraedronico
I may agree with your notition that wealth doesn't bring hapiness but
many people won't agree, the important thing is Choice, people in Africa
and
Post by tetraedronico
other marginal areas around the world don't have other choice than
living in
Post by tetraedronico
missery. The key is that a socialist society can give you the choice of
being as oppulent as your society really wants given the amount of work
and
Post by tetraedronico
resources that you want to invest in satisfying your craving for
oppulence,
Post by tetraedronico
this will be a free market of living standards. I can imagine a world
were
Post by tetraedronico
some places people are going to work more and live better and some other
places where people work much less but may only have basic commodities,
but
Post by tetraedronico
they have the choice of moving wherever they please, they will not be
imprisoned to the piece of desertic land they were born in.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:14:43
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
yeah, I was talking to a green representative about the future , he saw
us
Post by tetraedronico
as scrapping the car and replacing it with individual flying machines.
Lets get real, for the whole world to enjoy the opulance of the english
lower middle classes we would need a much, much smaller populace than we
have now. our eco system just cant handle it.
Anyway , its a bourguios philosophy that human satisfaction comes from
material wealth, the idea that happiness , contentment and richness of
human
Post by tetraedronico
experience comes from things outside of ourselves is a result of
objectivity.
One myth we need to smash is that human betterment comes from the
accumalation of material wealth.
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist
society will be one where people have to share everything including
their
Post by tetraedronico
tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they
have
Post by tetraedronico
to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We
need to
Post by tetraedronico
demistify that notion.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorfotografo. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorbesador. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 20:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Marcos - I work for a company that deals with hundreds of thousand of different kind of commodities, I would feel extremelly silly if someone proves me I don't understand it's concept. I simpathize with your vision of riding public transportation or making your way to work by bus or bicycle, but most people won't simpathize with you, even worst, most people in the working class won't. That idea doesn't sell, in a way you're perpetuating the notion of socialist-society equals a homeless-society (or vagabund-like society, you get the picture) by denying the people and specially the youth of today's things that make life really enjoyable. I rather have a car that runs on solar or renewable energy than having to be subject to the schedules and inconveniences of public transportation. I believe the socialist society is all about choices not sacrifices.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Marcos Colome <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 16:01:05
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

I do not know if you have understood the concept of commodity.There are a
few people in this world that have a plasma television and a SUV, there are
billions of people living in hunger and poverty, you can not look the
worlld thru own eyes. I lived in NY, Chicago and Canada many years and I
never needed a car, I enjoyed traveling in a train reading a book, and the
money that I was going to spend in a car I use it for something else, we
never watched television, we wer always going out with friends, and going
to parties meeting and conferences, or doing something esle, going to the
library to read, or to buy books in bookstores, or going out to restaurants,
in California everybody needs a car, because the car industry created
those conditions, even more, they purhcased all the trains transportation
companies and proposed to create freeway, and I have never purchased a new
car, I purchased one several years ago, and I have rebuilt them completely
as a new one, and it is much better than the new one. We all have different
considerations about life, for me a car and a television is not very
important in my life. When I was younger there was a car park in front of my
father house and I never used it, I preferred to go out with my friends and
walk around the whole town, and talk about politic in a public park, or
discuss about Marx and Engels books
Post by tetraedronico
The devil is in the details.
For example, I have to confess, I'm in love with my 46 inch LCD Tv and my
suv, I know, it's fetishism.. . it's not a necessity other than for my ego,
but I'm willing to work one hour more for a month to get and enjoy it. If
this sort of commodities won't be available in a socialist society that is
willing to pay the price of working more to enjoy it then I guess this is
the reason why so many people reject these theories. I believe a socialist
society will have the option to enjoy this sort of opullence. If a
capitalist society is doing this right now with relative success, why a
socialist won't on an even larger escale?
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 15:15:01
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
That is the reason why we have said, that socialism can not be built
without
the desires of the majority of the working class of the world, and also
the
bourgeois ideology has affected the minds of the workers and the human
being
all over the earth. Socialism is the elimination of commodities, and the
elimination fo capitalist mareket, commodities is the heart of the
capitalist society, the purpose of socialism is put in practice the
principle of each acording to their needs .........
Post by tetraedronico
I may agree with your notition that wealth doesn't bring hapiness but
many people won't agree, the important thing is Choice, people in Africa
and
Post by tetraedronico
other marginal areas around the world don't have other choice than
living in
Post by tetraedronico
missery. The key is that a socialist society can give you the choice of
being as oppulent as your society really wants given the amount of work
and
Post by tetraedronico
resources that you want to invest in satisfying your craving for
oppulence,
Post by tetraedronico
this will be a free market of living standards. I can imagine a world
were
Post by tetraedronico
some places people are going to work more and live better and some other
places where people work much less but may only have basic commodities,
but
Post by tetraedronico
they have the choice of moving wherever they please, they will not be
imprisoned to the piece of desertic land they were born in.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:14:43
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
yeah, I was talking to a green representative about the future , he saw
us
Post by tetraedronico
as scrapping the car and replacing it with individual flying machines.
Lets get real, for the whole world to enjoy the opulance of the english
lower middle classes we would need a much, much smaller populace than we
have now. our eco system just cant handle it.
Anyway , its a bourguios philosophy that human satisfaction comes from
material wealth, the idea that happiness , contentment and richness of
human
Post by tetraedronico
experience comes from things outside of ourselves is a result of
objectivity.
One myth we need to smash is that human betterment comes from the
accumalation of material wealth.
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist
society will be one where people have to share everything including
their
Post by tetraedronico
tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they
have
Post by tetraedronico
to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We
need to
Post by tetraedronico
demistify that notion.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorfotografo. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorbesador. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-26 21:08:41 UTC
Permalink
I am not saying that you must travel in a bus or train, what I am saying is
that different people have different concept about life, that is a personal
preference.. The commodity that you company produced, is not your
commodity, it is something created for the creation of profits for the
capitalists owners, and the capitalist appropiated it privately, but it is
socially produced, , that is what Marx called the fetishism of the
commodity, which appears to be a relation among things, but in reality it
is a relation among human beings, In a socialist society the value of use
of everything produced by the human being will prevail over the value of
exchange of the commodity, therefore commodity as a way of producing profits
will be eliminated, the problem is that if you do not read Marx you can not
understand the capitalist society, it is important to understand the concept
of commodity as Marx described, if at least a small booklet about political
economy is not read, at least Salary, Price and Profits, will give a better
idea of the problem, it would be hard to understand the concept of Marxist
economical point of view. . The first chapters of Volume one of Capital is
dealing with the concept of commodity and Marx spent several years working
in that concept, which Ricardo could not explain clearly, not even
economist with PHD are able to understand the concept of commodity, because
they are being blinded with the concept of commodity spread by the bourgeois
economy, in order to understand our society we must break away ideologically
with this society, that is what Marx did first, we can not take one piece of
the bourgeois ideology and mix another piece with the socialist ideology,
they are two different school of thoughts. People think that Capital is all
the assets that a company owns, and in reality capital is accumulated dead
labor, we are surrounded by dead labor, and by commodities that we can not
own and are produced by ourselves, that is the reason why Marx wrote about
the alienation of the working class
Post by tetraedronico
Marcos - I work for a company that deals with hundreds of thousand of
different kind of commodities, I would feel extremelly silly if someone
proves me I don't understand it's concept. I simpathize with your vision of
riding public transportation or making your way to work by bus or bicycle,
but most people won't simpathize with you, even worst, most people in the
working class won't. That idea doesn't sell, in a way you're perpetuating
the notion of socialist-society equals a homeless-society (or vagabund-like
society, you get the picture) by denying the people and specially the youth
of today's things that make life really enjoyable. I rather have a car that
runs on solar or renewable energy than having to be subject to the schedules
and inconveniences of public transportation. I believe the socialist society
is all about choices not sacrifices.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 16:01:05
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
I do not know if you have understood the concept of commodity.There are a
few people in this world that have a plasma television and a SUV, there are
billions of people living in hunger and poverty, you can not look the
worlld thru own eyes. I lived in NY, Chicago and Canada many years and I
never needed a car, I enjoyed traveling in a train reading a book, and the
money that I was going to spend in a car I use it for something else, we
never watched television, we wer always going out with friends, and going
to parties meeting and conferences, or doing something esle, going to the
library to read, or to buy books in bookstores, or going out to restaurants,
in California everybody needs a car, because the car industry created
those conditions, even more, they purhcased all the trains transportation
companies and proposed to create freeway, and I have never purchased a new
car, I purchased one several years ago, and I have rebuilt them completely
as a new one, and it is much better than the new one. We all have different
considerations about life, for me a car and a television is not very
important in my life. When I was younger there was a car park in front of my
father house and I never used it, I preferred to go out with my friends and
walk around the whole town, and talk about politic in a public park, or
discuss about Marx and Engels books
Post by tetraedronico
The devil is in the details.
For example, I have to confess, I'm in love with my 46 inch LCD Tv and
my
Post by tetraedronico
suv, I know, it's fetishism.. . it's not a necessity other than for my
ego,
Post by tetraedronico
but I'm willing to work one hour more for a month to get and enjoy it.
If
Post by tetraedronico
this sort of commodities won't be available in a socialist society that
is
Post by tetraedronico
willing to pay the price of working more to enjoy it then I guess this
is
Post by tetraedronico
the reason why so many people reject these theories. I believe a
socialist
Post by tetraedronico
society will have the option to enjoy this sort of opullence. If a
capitalist society is doing this right now with relative success, why a
socialist won't on an even larger escale?
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 15:15:01
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
That is the reason why we have said, that socialism can not be built
without
the desires of the majority of the working class of the world, and also
the
bourgeois ideology has affected the minds of the workers and the human
being
all over the earth. Socialism is the elimination of commodities, and the
elimination fo capitalist mareket, commodities is the heart of the
capitalist society, the purpose of socialism is put in practice the
principle of each acording to their needs .........
Post by tetraedronico
I may agree with your notition that wealth doesn't bring hapiness but
many people won't agree, the important thing is Choice, people in
Africa
Post by tetraedronico
and
Post by tetraedronico
other marginal areas around the world don't have other choice than
living in
Post by tetraedronico
missery. The key is that a socialist society can give you the choice
of
Post by tetraedronico
Post by tetraedronico
being as oppulent as your society really wants given the amount of
work
Post by tetraedronico
and
Post by tetraedronico
resources that you want to invest in satisfying your craving for
oppulence,
Post by tetraedronico
this will be a free market of living standards. I can imagine a world
were
Post by tetraedronico
some places people are going to work more and live better and some
other
Post by tetraedronico
Post by tetraedronico
places where people work much less but may only have basic
commodities,
Post by tetraedronico
but
Post by tetraedronico
they have the choice of moving wherever they please, they will not be
imprisoned to the piece of desertic land they were born in.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:14:43
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.
yeah, I was talking to a green representative about the future , he
saw
Post by tetraedronico
us
Post by tetraedronico
as scrapping the car and replacing it with individual flying machines.
Lets get real, for the whole world to enjoy the opulance of the
english
Post by tetraedronico
Post by tetraedronico
lower middle classes we would need a much, much smaller populace than
we
Post by tetraedronico
Post by tetraedronico
have now. our eco system just cant handle it.
Anyway , its a bourguios philosophy that human satisfaction comes from
material wealth, the idea that happiness , contentment and richness of
human
Post by tetraedronico
experience comes from things outside of ourselves is a result of
objectivity.
One myth we need to smash is that human betterment comes from the
accumalation of material wealth.
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist
society will be one where people have to share everything including
their
Post by tetraedronico
tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they
have
Post by tetraedronico
to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We
need to
Post by tetraedronico
demistify that notion.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorfotografo. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorbesador. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorambientalista.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-26 22:17:20 UTC
Permalink
Marcos - I don't disagree with you and I personally respect you but I don't see a point to make me feel like a stupid that doesn't know what is a commodity in the eyes of Karl Marx. All I'm saying is that the working class people today enjoy all these great things, they enjoy their SUV cars, TV's, Cable programs, Cell phones, Ipods and laptops, warm water and pools and all the rest of the gadgets that you may consider "not necessary". My whole point is that a socialist society doesn't necesarely need to be depraved of all these things, what I'm saying is that in my oppinion the socialist society will have the choice of having or not these things, and that we shouldn't be around preaching that we would have to make these sacrifices in a socialist society, that's all I'm saying. That is Choice over Sacrifice. Most people today are forced to live in sacrifices because this is the way that capitalist society works and it's very difficult to cross the gap
between the classes, not even immigrants can do this when they decide to cross the border to have a better salary for their work, many mexican illegal immigrants ride on public transportation and work many hours and they can't cross the poor status, they don't want to stay poor, they want to enjoy life, they want cars and they want good houses, and good TV's and good things, most people do. If you tell them that in a socialist society everybody will be like them, without cars or TV's then they will reject your ideas. Don't try approaching them with hardcore Marxist theories because that is equivalent to try teaching Calculus to the babies, you need to talk to them using a language that they can understand, you need to convince them that they will enjoy a better quality of life, in reality they don't care too much about hunger in the world as they're the ones suffering from it and need to look after their own families, you need to convince them that
their quality of life will increase and that you are not going to try to take away the things that they have in mind in order to give them to the other poor, and that everybody will be poor, like Robin Hood taking the money away from the rich and giving it to the poor, but that somehow that is not enough and everybody will be poor, reality is more complex than that, I say this because there are many people saying that we have enough resources to feed the world 12 times as numerous as our current population, we should exploit that and use it to demistify the notion that people will have to make these sacrifices in Socialist world. I don't care about what Marx says about commodities, all I can tell you is that I love my TV and my car, don't dare anyone try to take it away from me. I use the TV to learn by watching documentaries and also for entertainment and my car gives me the freedom to go wherever, whenever and as far I choose. I consider all of these
necesities that everybody must have and I believe there is plenty of room and resources so that everybody can have them if they want it, if as a society we choose to change the world.

Regards,

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Marcos Colome <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 17:08:41
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

I am not saying that you must travel in a bus or train, what I am saying is
that different people have different concept about life, that is a personal
preference.. The commodity that you company produced, is not your
commodity, it is something created for the creation of profits for the
capitalists owners, and the capitalist appropiated it privately, but it is
socially produced, , that is what Marx called the fetishism of the
commodity, which appears to be a relation among things, but in reality it
is a relation among human beings, In a socialist society the value of use
of everything produced by the human being will prevail over the value of
exchange of the commodity, therefore commodity as a way of producing profits
will be eliminated, the problem is that if you do not read Marx you can not
understand the capitalist society, it is important to understand the concept
of commodity as Marx described, if at least a small booklet about political
economy is not read, at least Salary, Price and Profits, will give a better
idea of the problem, it would be hard to understand the concept of Marxist
economical point of view. . The first chapters of Volume one of Capital is
dealing with the concept of commodity and Marx spent several years working
in that concept, which Ricardo could not explain clearly, not even
economist with PHD are able to understand the concept of commodity, because
they are being blinded with the concept of commodity spread by the bourgeois
economy, in order to understand our society we must break away ideologically
with this society, that is what Marx did first, we can not take one piece of
the bourgeois ideology and mix another piece with the socialist ideology,
they are two different school of thoughts. People think that Capital is all
the assets that a company owns, and in reality capital is accumulated dead
labor, we are surrounded by dead labor, and by commodities that we can not
own and are produced by ourselves, that is the reason why Marx wrote about
the alienation of the working class
Post by tetraedronico
Marcos - I work for a company that deals with hundreds of thousand of
different kind of commodities, I would feel extremelly silly if someone
proves me I don't understand it's concept. I simpathize with your vision of
riding public transportation or making your way to work by bus or bicycle,
but most people won't simpathize with you, even worst, most people in the
working class won't. That idea doesn't sell, in a way you're perpetuating
the notion of socialist-society equals a homeless-society (or vagabund-like
society, you get the picture) by denying the people and specially the youth
of today's things that make life really enjoyable. I rather have a car that
runs on solar or renewable energy than having to be subject to the schedules
and inconveniences of public transportation. I believe the socialist society
is all about choices not sacrifices.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 16:01:05
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
I do not know if you have understood the concept of commodity.There are a
few people in this world that have a plasma television and a SUV, there
are
billions of people living in hunger and poverty, you can not look the
worlld thru own eyes. I lived in NY, Chicago and Canada many years and I
never needed a car, I enjoyed traveling in a train reading a book, and the
money that I was going to spend in a car I use it for something else, we
never watched television, we wer always going out with friends, and going
to parties meeting and conferences, or doing something esle, going to the
library to read, or to buy books in bookstores, or going out to
restaurants,
in California everybody needs a car, because the car industry created
those conditions, even more, they purhcased all the trains transportation
companies and proposed to create freeway, and I have never purchased a new
car, I purchased one several years ago, and I have rebuilt them completely
as a new one, and it is much better than the new one. We all have
different
considerations about life, for me a car and a television is not very
important in my life. When I was younger there was a car park in front of
my
father house and I never used it, I preferred to go out with my friends
and
walk around the whole town, and talk about politic in a public park, or
discuss about Marx and Engels books
Post by tetraedronico
The devil is in the details.
For example, I have to confess, I'm in love with my 46 inch LCD Tv and
my
Post by tetraedronico
suv, I know, it's fetishism.. . it's not a necessity other than for my
ego,
Post by tetraedronico
but I'm willing to work one hour more for a month to get and enjoy it.
If
Post by tetraedronico
this sort of commodities won't be available in a socialist society that
is
Post by tetraedronico
willing to pay the price of working more to enjoy it then I guess this
is
Post by tetraedronico
the reason why so many people reject these theories. I believe a
socialist
Post by tetraedronico
society will have the option to enjoy this sort of opullence. If a
capitalist society is doing this right now with relative success, why a
socialist won't on an even larger escale?
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 15:15:01
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
That is the reason why we have said, that socialism can not be built
without
the desires of the majority of the working class of the world, and also
the
bourgeois ideology has affected the minds of the workers and the human
being
all over the earth. Socialism is the elimination of commodities, and the
elimination fo capitalist mareket, commodities is the heart of the
capitalist society, the purpose of socialism is put in practice the
principle of each acording to their needs .........
Post by tetraedronico
I may agree with your notition that wealth doesn't bring hapiness but
many people won't agree, the important thing is Choice, people in
Africa
Post by tetraedronico
and
Post by tetraedronico
other marginal areas around the world don't have other choice than
living in
Post by tetraedronico
missery. The key is that a socialist society can give you the choice
of
Post by tetraedronico
Post by tetraedronico
being as oppulent as your society really wants given the amount of
work
Post by tetraedronico
and
Post by tetraedronico
resources that you want to invest in satisfying your craving for
oppulence,
Post by tetraedronico
this will be a free market of living standards. I can imagine a world
were
Post by tetraedronico
some places people are going to work more and live better and some
other
Post by tetraedronico
Post by tetraedronico
places where people work much less but may only have basic
commodities,
Post by tetraedronico
but
Post by tetraedronico
they have the choice of moving wherever they please, they will not be
imprisoned to the piece of desertic land they were born in.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 14:14:43
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
yeah, I was talking to a green representative about the future , he
saw
Post by tetraedronico
us
Post by tetraedronico
as scrapping the car and replacing it with individual flying machines.
Lets get real, for the whole world to enjoy the opulance of the
english
Post by tetraedronico
Post by tetraedronico
lower middle classes we would need a much, much smaller populace than
we
Post by tetraedronico
Post by tetraedronico
have now. our eco system just cant handle it.
Anyway , its a bourguios philosophy that human satisfaction comes from
material wealth, the idea that happiness , contentment and richness of
human
Post by tetraedronico
experience comes from things outside of ourselves is a result of
objectivity.
One myth we need to smash is that human betterment comes from the
accumalation of material wealth.
----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
somebody has very successfully spreaded the cliché that a socialist
society will be one where people have to share everything including
their
Post by tetraedronico
tootbrushes and that everybody is going to be very poor and that they
have
Post by tetraedronico
to make bigger sacrifices like riding bikes or being vegetarians. We
need to
Post by tetraedronico
demistify that notion.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: viernes, 26 de octubre, 2007 9:15:53
Asunto: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist
problems.
Hi all
I am reminded of George Orwell's dismissive comments of sandal
wearing, vegetarian "socialists" in "On the Road to Wigan Pier."
Graham
Post by tetraedronico
I really doubt that we can sell Socialism to people by promoting
vegetarianism and riding in bicycles, people are going to say we're
crazies and dismiss this for eternity.
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorfotografo. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorbesador. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor ambientalista!
Encuentra consejos para cuidar el lugar donde vivimos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorambientalis ta.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorfotografo.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-27 14:30:53 UTC
Permalink
All,

I think we're discussing and arguing about two opposite points of views here, but I think everybody will like to end this not by insults but with ideas and agreement, after all, we all are socialist friends in one way or the other.

Without having to point fingers here, I can see the clear difference between those who think that society as a whole will need to take further sacrifices and those who think that life styles will remain or improve, myself including in this category.

Whatever your inclination may be regarding this you should tell why and avoid confrontations. we need to share our point of view and move on.

The reason why I lean towards of the remaining or improving of the lifestyles it's because I truly believe that this will be possible. I believe that every single one of us can and will perfectly enjoy all the good and services we have today, including vehicles and electro-domestics appliances, or even obscure services like cable television. Or at least initially until the socialist free market of supply and demand proves that certain goods or practices are unsustainable, but I truly believe that a socialist society will try to maximize the use of the raw materials in order to produce the same goods we have today, providing first all the basic human needs. In the future, practices such as eating meat, chicken or fish may prove unsustainable and may be reduce by massive PR showing scientific evidence of it, the meat industry itself will be the one saying it's unsustainble, as oppose of today in Capitalism, that the poultry industry says "eat more cow" and
the meat industry says "eat more chicken", but initially I don't think that society will be willing to give up these "pleasures" (I personaly find these repulsive). we need to understand that society will never buy into Socialism if we approach them saying that they need to take these kind of sacrifices because that is too unrealistic, let the future Socialist Society the one that decides which goods or services are unsustainable, not us. I have read many times including in the socialist standard magazine that we have ample resources to feed a planet populations many times as big as the current one and we do have plenty raw materials to put a good vehicle in every household that wishes to have the freedom of movement. Maybe in the future Socialist Society we all will indeed be like homeless as you guys say in order to standarize the way of living across all humans in this world, what I don't agree is that you try to approach the general public and try
to sell this conclusion that you're not sure about, even worse I also don't agree that you say that you need to kill 80% of the human population, this is not what I have learn in my few months of reading the socialist standard.

Tetraedrónico


____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-27 19:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Well, while we are into a ranting mode
ive lived a full, luvly life considering i live in a capitlist, consumer nightmare or wet dream [which ever your perspective ]
I lived high lifes, taxis , hotels spending a grand in a weekend sort of thing, i lived low lifes , ive been a beggar on 3 different continents [im not bullshitting]
you know the richest, most qualitive time, where i experienced the max of self growth and learning in my life was ?
livin in a caravan in west wales with no electricity, and no runnning water on less that £20.00 a week [it was the 80s]
[yeah chopping wood warms you twice]
most politicians would describe the way i lived as poverty and a poverty that should be eliminated [inexpereinced, patsy faced twats] but maybe theyre right because what it produces is real people who learn how to live with time instead of learning how to aviod it. Real people who face their contradictions and live to resolve them [the internal dialectic]. People who can live as much as materially possible to their ideals.
what to say to you idiots, you little boys who love their toys?
supporting socialism as an idea, selling out to capitalism for shiny beads and things
your lives are in fantasy and denial ? you re lacking in life experience, what you think you know is based on what youve read in books and presumptions?
youve based the whole of you lives on some kind of psudo material security and the aquisistion of toys?
that its your pre-occupation with materialism that stifles your development and experience? that your indulgence of toys stops you experiencing a deeper, more meaningfull and mysterious reality?
Im not go to say any of that to you [because you will never accept it], Im going to say this to you instead:
KNUMSKULLS wake up! our environment cannot handle the level of material production to keep the worlds population sedated with the material wealth that you are used to.
Childish , dreamboats , the socialist paradise , yeah all the virgins will give free blow jobs as well,
At the moment we are facing an environmental nightmare when only a third of the worlds population has access to the commodity markets and two thirds of those have very limited access, so when the revolution happens those africans, asian, south americans are going to say Hey mon give me a new scanner, mobile , computers ipod telescopes printed central heating inhouse electric, fueled individual transporters Tvs, DVD writer
after world war 2 the communist were saying the same thing too, god, suckers of unrealistic properganda..... dream on.
the good news is [if we are not going to give up most of our arable land to the growth of bio fuels] is there is plenty of land to grow plenty of food for everyone. A massive abundance of it if we turn vegetarian.
god bless the lentil
shit on you explioters and murderers of other sentient life forms.
you are either part of the problem or part of the solution, if you are waffling on about socialism and selling out to capitalism then apart from being a bad example, you are part of the problem.

----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


All,

I think we're discussing and arguing about two opposite points of views here, but I think everybody will like to end this not by insults but with ideas and agreement, after all, we all are socialist friends in one way or the other.

Without having to point fingers here, I can see the clear difference between those who think that society as a whole will need to take further sacrifices and those who think that life styles will remain or improve, myself including in this category.

Whatever your inclination may be regarding this you should tell why and avoid confrontations. we need to share our point of view and move on.

The reason why I lean towards of the remaining or improving of the lifestyles it's because I truly believe that this will be possible. I believe that every single one of us can and will perfectly enjoy all the good and services we have today, including vehicles and electro-domestics appliances, or even obscure services like cable television. Or at least initially until the socialist free market of supply and demand proves that certain goods or practices are unsustainable, but I truly believe that a socialist society will try to maximize the use of the raw materials in order to produce the same goods we have today, providing first all the basic human needs. In the future, practices such as eating meat, chicken or fish may prove unsustainable and may be reduce by massive PR showing scientific evidence of it, the meat industry itself will be the one saying it's unsustainble, as oppose of today in Capitalism, that the poultry industry says "eat more cow" and
the meat industry says "eat more chicken", but initially I don't think that society will be willing to give up these "pleasures" (I personaly find these repulsive). we need to understand that society will never buy into Socialism if we approach them saying that they need to take these kind of sacrifices because that is too unrealistic, let the future Socialist Society the one that decides which goods or services are unsustainable, not us. I have read many times including in the socialist standard magazine that we have ample resources to feed a planet populations many times as big as the current one and we do have plenty raw materials to put a good vehicle in every household that wishes to have the freedom of movement. Maybe in the future Socialist Society we all will indeed be like homeless as you guys say in order to standarize the way of living across all humans in this world, what I don't agree is that you try to approach the general public and try
to sell this conclusion that you're not sure about, even worse I also don't agree that you say that you need to kill 80% of the human population, this is not what I have learn in my few months of reading the socialist standard.

Tetraedrónico

__________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-27 20:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Nick,

Nobody is saying that Vagabonds will not exist in Socialism. There's no reason to feel threatened.
But the mere fact that you're wasting your time here, using your home computer, with Internet connection, is truly revealing.
Don't try to pretend that you are living an ascetic life. I can take you to my relatives ranch down in Mexico to show you what an ascetic life really is.

You said to me:
"what to say to you idiots, you little boys who love their toys?"

Are you writing this from under a bridge? Minimum you have a computer with Internet, (aren't these toys?) why are you denying the rest of the people to have this that you enjoy? only 18% of world population have computer with internet access and you're taking part of this.

Please end your hypocrisy now and refrain from telling people that they need to take sacrifices that you yourself are clearly not taking and not willing to take.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Nick Tapping <***@ntlworld.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 15:33:32
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Well, while we are into a ranting mode
ive lived a full, luvly life considering i live in a capitlist, consumer nightmare or wet dream [which ever your perspective ]
I lived high lifes, taxis , hotels spending a grand in a weekend sort of thing, i lived low lifes , ive been a beggar on 3 different continents [im not bullshitting]
you know the richest, most qualitive time, where i experienced the max of self growth and learning in my life was ?
livin in a caravan in west wales with no electricity, and no runnning water on less that £20.00 a week [it was the 80s]
[yeah chopping wood warms you twice]
most politicians would describe the way i lived as poverty and a poverty that should be eliminated [inexpereinced, patsy faced twats] but maybe theyre right because what it produces is real people who learn how to live with time instead of learning how to aviod it. Real people who face their contradictions and live to resolve them [the internal dialectic]. People who can live as much as materially possible to their ideals.
what to say to you idiots, you little boys who love their toys?
supporting socialism as an idea, selling out to capitalism for shiny beads and things
your lives are in fantasy and denial ? you re lacking in life experience, what you think you know is based on what youve read in books and presumptions?
youve based the whole of you lives on some kind of psudo material security and the aquisistion of toys?
that its your pre-occupation with materialism that stifles your development and experience? that your indulgence of toys stops you experiencing a deeper, more meaningfull and mysterious reality?
Im not go to say any of that to you [because you will never accept it], Im going to say this to you instead:
KNUMSKULLS wake up! our environment cannot handle the level of material production to keep the worlds population sedated with the material wealth that you are used to.
Childish , dreamboats , the socialist paradise , yeah all the virgins will give free blow jobs as well,
At the moment we are facing an environmental nightmare when only a third of the worlds population has access to the commodity markets and two thirds of those have very limited access, so when the revolution happens those africans, asian, south americans are going to say Hey mon give me a new scanner, mobile , computers ipod telescopes printed central heating inhouse electric, fueled individual transporters Tvs, DVD writer
after world war 2 the communist were saying the same thing too, god, suckers of unrealistic properganda. .... dream on.
the good news is [if we are not going to give up most of our arable land to the growth of bio fuels] is there is plenty of land to grow plenty of food for everyone. A massive abundance of it if we turn vegetarian.
god bless the lentil
shit on you explioters and murderers of other sentient life forms.
you are either part of the problem or part of the solution, if you are waffling on about socialism and selling out to capitalism then apart from being a bad example, you are part of the problem.

----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

All,

I think we're discussing and arguing about two opposite points of views here, but I think everybody will like to end this not by insults but with ideas and agreement, after all, we all are socialist friends in one way or the other.

Without having to point fingers here, I can see the clear difference between those who think that society as a whole will need to take further sacrifices and those who think that life styles will remain or improve, myself including in this category.

Whatever your inclination may be regarding this you should tell why and avoid confrontations. we need to share our point of view and move on.

The reason why I lean towards of the remaining or improving of the lifestyles it's because I truly believe that this will be possible. I believe that every single one of us can and will perfectly enjoy all the good and services we have today, including vehicles and electro-domestics appliances, or even obscure services like cable television. Or at least initially until the socialist free market of supply and demand proves that certain goods or practices are unsustainable, but I truly believe that a socialist society will try to maximize the use of the raw materials in order to produce the same goods we have today, providing first all the basic human needs. In the future, practices such as eating meat, chicken or fish may prove unsustainable and may be reduce by massive PR showing scientific evidence of it, the meat industry itself will be the one saying it's unsustainble, as oppose of today in Capitalism, that the poultry industry says "eat more cow" and
the meat industry says "eat more chicken", but initially I don't think that society will be willing to give up these "pleasures" (I personaly find these repulsive). we need to understand that society will never buy into Socialism if we approach them saying that they need to take these kind of sacrifices because that is too unrealistic, let the future Socialist Society the one that decides which goods or services are unsustainable, not us. I have read many times including in the socialist standard magazine that we have ample resources to feed a planet populations many times as big as the current one and we do have plenty raw materials to put a good vehicle in every household that wishes to have the freedom of movement. Maybe in the future Socialist Society we all will indeed be like homeless as you guys say in order to standarize the way of living across all humans in this world, what I don't agree is that you try to approach the general public and try
to sell this conclusion that you're not sure about, even worse I also don't agree that you say that you need to kill 80% of the human population, this is not what I have learn in my few months of reading the socialist standard.

Tetraedrónico

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo. yahoo.com. mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor asador!
Aprende todo sobre asados.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorasador.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-28 06:02:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear techno, please read posts carefully, i have not stated or am pretending to live an ascetic life. i stated that the MOST qualitive time was WHEN I did live [what intellectual twats] call an acsetic lifestyle. At the moment I dont, but is something I am returning too, but looking after 2 daughters age 15 months and 8 years , its taking a little bit of time. [also social conditions have changed since the 80s in the UK , its much more difficult to find free land so i am looking abroad.]
Our family income is under £15,000 pa,[ family of 4] in the UK that makes us pretty poor, but we still manage to save money, becuase we dont buy new and we hardly buy anything apart from [good] food and cloths. we have a very qualitive life, our kids are great, intellegent [the 8 year old always at the top of her class [not for any genetic reason but because she knows she is of value, and gets real time and real communication from her parents [ non of our relationships are mediated with things] unlike our neighboors whos heads are fucked up, lie, steal, play mindgames, cant accept responsibility for their actions, dim, and get lots of new toys.

My point is quality of life does not equate to material goods..... this is a capitalist and bourgious
myth

im not asking people to make sacrifices either, Im telling them that if they start trying to resolve their contradictions they will have a better life and be a better influence on society and the planet as a whole..




----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


Nick,

Nobody is saying that Vagabonds will not exist in Socialism. There's no reason to feel threatened.
But the mere fact that you're wasting your time here, using your home computer, with Internet connection, is truly revealing.
Don't try to pretend that you are living an ascetic life. I can take you to my relatives ranch down in Mexico to show you what an ascetic life really is.

You said to me:
"what to say to you idiots, you little boys who love their toys?"

Are you writing this from under a bridge? Minimum you have a computer with Internet, (aren't these toys?) why are you denying the rest of the people to have this that you enjoy? only 18% of world population have computer with internet access and you're taking part of this.

Please end your hypocrisy now and refrain from telling people that they need to take sacrifices that you yourself are clearly not taking and not willing to take.

Tetraedrónico

----- Mensaje original ----
De: Nick Tapping <***@ntlworld.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 15:33:32
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Well, while we are into a ranting mode
ive lived a full, luvly life considering i live in a capitlist, consumer nightmare or wet dream [which ever your perspective ]
I lived high lifes, taxis , hotels spending a grand in a weekend sort of thing, i lived low lifes , ive been a beggar on 3 different continents [im not bullshitting]
you know the richest, most qualitive time, where i experienced the max of self growth and learning in my life was ?
livin in a caravan in west wales with no electricity, and no runnning water on less that £20.00 a week [it was the 80s]
[yeah chopping wood warms you twice]
most politicians would describe the way i lived as poverty and a poverty that should be eliminated [inexpereinced, patsy faced twats] but maybe theyre right because what it produces is real people who learn how to live with time instead of learning how to aviod it. Real people who face their contradictions and live to resolve them [the internal dialectic]. People who can live as much as materially possible to their ideals.
what to say to you idiots, you little boys who love their toys?
supporting socialism as an idea, selling out to capitalism for shiny beads and things
your lives are in fantasy and denial ? you re lacking in life experience, what you think you know is based on what youve read in books and presumptions?
youve based the whole of you lives on some kind of psudo material security and the aquisistion of toys?
that its your pre-occupation with materialism that stifles your development and experience? that your indulgence of toys stops you experiencing a deeper, more meaningfull and mysterious reality?
Im not go to say any of that to you [because you will never accept it], Im going to say this to you instead:
KNUMSKULLS wake up! our environment cannot handle the level of material production to keep the worlds population sedated with the material wealth that you are used to.
Childish , dreamboats , the socialist paradise , yeah all the virgins will give free blow jobs as well,
At the moment we are facing an environmental nightmare when only a third of the worlds population has access to the commodity markets and two thirds of those have very limited access, so when the revolution happens those africans, asian, south americans are going to say Hey mon give me a new scanner, mobile , computers ipod telescopes printed central heating inhouse electric, fueled individual transporters Tvs, DVD writer
after world war 2 the communist were saying the same thing too, god, suckers of unrealistic properganda. .... dream on.
the good news is [if we are not going to give up most of our arable land to the growth of bio fuels] is there is plenty of land to grow plenty of food for everyone. A massive abundance of it if we turn vegetarian.
god bless the lentil
shit on you explioters and murderers of other sentient life forms.
you are either part of the problem or part of the solution, if you are waffling on about socialism and selling out to capitalism then apart from being a bad example, you are part of the problem.

----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

All,

I think we're discussing and arguing about two opposite points of views here, but I think everybody will like to end this not by insults but with ideas and agreement, after all, we all are socialist friends in one way or the other.

Without having to point fingers here, I can see the clear difference between those who think that society as a whole will need to take further sacrifices and those who think that life styles will remain or improve, myself including in this category.

Whatever your inclination may be regarding this you should tell why and avoid confrontations. we need to share our point of view and move on.

The reason why I lean towards of the remaining or improving of the lifestyles it's because I truly believe that this will be possible. I believe that every single one of us can and will perfectly enjoy all the good and services we have today, including vehicles and electro-domestics appliances, or even obscure services like cable television. Or at least initially until the socialist free market of supply and demand proves that certain goods or practices are unsustainable, but I truly believe that a socialist society will try to maximize the use of the raw materials in order to produce the same goods we have today, providing first all the basic human needs. In the future, practices such as eating meat, chicken or fish may prove unsustainable and may be reduce by massive PR showing scientific evidence of it, the meat industry itself will be the one saying it's unsustainble, as oppose of today in Capitalism, that the poultry industry says "eat more cow" and
the meat industry says "eat more chicken", but initially I don't think that society will be willing to give up these "pleasures" (I personaly find these repulsive). we need to understand that society will never buy into Socialism if we approach them saying that they need to take these kind of sacrifices because that is too unrealistic, let the future Socialist Society the one that decides which goods or services are unsustainable, not us. I have read many times including in the socialist standard magazine that we have ample resources to feed a planet populations many times as big as the current one and we do have plenty raw materials to put a good vehicle in every household that wishes to have the freedom of movement. Maybe in the future Socialist Society we all will indeed be like homeless as you guys say in order to standarize the way of living across all humans in this world, what I don't agree is that you try to approach the general public and try
to sell this conclusion that you're not sure about, even worse I also don't agree that you say that you need to kill 80% of the human population, this is not what I have learn in my few months of reading the socialist standard.

Tetraedrónico

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo. yahoo.com. mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor asador!
Aprende todo sobre asados.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorasador.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-28 01:23:56 UTC
Permalink
I don't believe that one need to pay a fee to become a socialist or make contributions to earn a right to say anything about socialism. I've seen here some folks making distinctions between party members and sympathizers, in such a dismissive way that pains me because I'm not a member, never been and I'm not sure I will.

I don't think people necessarely need to join a party to become Socialists. A socialist to me is a person that believes in the fundamental principles behind socialism, this is not a secret society as far as I know, where the truth is only revealed to the upper members of their clans, so I agree with you Marcos, Socialism is not a revealed truth communicated from above, nevertheless we need to be mature enough to know how to confront our ideas with the rest of our group and be humble sometimes to leave behind certains erroneous and preconceived ideas like this one of Socialist Society equals Homeless-like Society, this is a fallacy and it is very important to understand so that we can approach non-Socialists and demistify this notion that only brings fears and create unreasonable rejection, Socialism is very unpopular because it's widely misunderstood and it is our duty to be well inform and well prepared when we spread the word. The last century
revolutions that ended up in State capitalism has been very unfavorable to this movement to the extent that most people think that we want to go back to such kind of society, like peasants in a Russian state, or being homeless in eastern Berlin, or having a one-child policy on top of us, or living in the missery of the Cuban state, we need to work harder in order to draw a clear line between a pseudo socialist state and a world wide Socialist society and what should the people expect from the two antagonistic philosophies.

Good night.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Marcos Colome <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 20:27:53
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin

Have you ever been a member of any vanguard party ? Under the vanguard
party, members must agree on everything that comes from the central
committee, and the so called democratic centralism never works, and even if
you do not agree in certain issue, one must agree because it was approved by
the central committee, and the only ones allow to write in the newspaper are
the members of the central committee, and they are the only one authorized
to speak in public representing the party. I have seen more freedom of
expression in the WSM than in other so called communist parties. You should
join the RCPUSA and raise a critique against a saint called Bob Avakian, or
against a pope called Mao Tse Tung, wait for the results, or the
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada and raised a critique against Hardian
Vains, or the MPUSA that were similar to a convent or a monastery, at least
in the WSM we can raise a critique against Marx, Engels and we have
demystified Vladimir Lenin, I saw certain situation where the members of the
central committee and the members of another organizations were killing each
other just based on ideological and organization differences
Post by Paula
Robin
The only solution to capitalist problems is to join - or as a
minimum, not disagree with - the SPGB.
Anyone who thinks that they have an alternative route to socialism
will be shot down in flames.
So don't come to our forum Robin, and expect to get away with anything.
Graham has my full backing.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Graham Taylor
2007-10-28 03:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Socialism won't come through twee little life-style changes like cycling, drinking only water and eating grass.

It will come through revolution.


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-28 04:01:42 UTC
Permalink
It is totally correct, socialism will only come through a socialist
revolution, and probably we are going to have some opposition from the
rulers, and we must be ready to confront them in some manner, and we are
going to have some form of violence from them, they are not going to give
up so easily, and it will not come through petty bourgeois ideology either,
it will come thru a philosophy of liberation, that wanted to create a new
society, totally different to capitalism, no to reform this one,
Post by Graham Taylor
Socialism won't come through twee little life-style changes like
cycling, drinking only water and eating grass.
It will come through revolution.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-28 03:55:08 UTC
Permalink
Socialists do need a party, in the same manner that the bourgoise needs a
party. without a political organization it would be very hard for the
working to be able to create the collectivization of the means of
productions. I think you have confused my message, I am talking about the
vanguard party, the vanguard party is totally different to the World
Socialist Movment and its companion parties. We do not have a central
commitee, and we do not have leaders, our guide is not the Leninist book
What is to be donde? this is a different conception, the vanguard party is
a conception of Karl Kautsy and Ferdinand Lasalle placed in practice by the
bolshevik, we were opponents of the bolshevik and Lenin since the very
beginning and history has proven that we were totally correct. Before I
joined this party I did a long homework, before joining this party I was a
member of the Socialist Labor Party of the US.( which I consider a good
party ) If for any reason I must leave this party, i will not join any
other party, (or I will join the SLP, even that I do not agree with
socialism in one country,) because this is the best party in the whole
working class movement. I think you must work a little more in your
ideological education, then you will understand the concept of a socialist
party
Post by tetraedronico
I don't believe that one need to pay a fee to become a socialist or make
contributions to earn a right to say anything about socialism. I've seen
here some folks making distinctions between party members and sympathizers,
in such a dismissive way that pains me because I'm not a member, never been
and I'm not sure I will.
I don't think people necessarely need to join a party to become
Socialists. A socialist to me is a person that believes in the fundamental
principles behind socialism, this is not a secret society as far as I know,
where the truth is only revealed to the upper members of their clans, so I
agree with you Marcos, Socialism is not a revealed truth communicated from
above, nevertheless we need to be mature enough to know how to confront our
ideas with the rest of our group and be humble sometimes to leave behind
certains erroneous and preconceived ideas like this one of Socialist Society
equals Homeless-like Society, this is a fallacy and it is very important to
understand so that we can approach non-Socialists and demistify this notion
that only brings fears and create unreasonable rejection, Socialism is very
unpopular because it's widely misunderstood and it is our duty to be well
inform and well prepared when we spread the word. The last century
revolutions that ended up in State capitalism has been very unfavorable to
this movement to the extent that most people think that we want to go back
to such kind of society, like peasants in a Russian state, or being homeless
in eastern Berlin, or having a one-child policy on top of us, or living in
the missery of the Cuban state, we need to work harder in order to draw a
clear line between a pseudo socialist state and a world wide Socialist
society and what should the people expect from the two antagonistic
philosophies.
Good night.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 20:27:53
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin
Have you ever been a member of any vanguard party ? Under the vanguard
party, members must agree on everything that comes from the central
committee, and the so called democratic centralism never works, and even if
you do not agree in certain issue, one must agree because it was approved by
the central committee, and the only ones allow to write in the newspaper are
the members of the central committee, and they are the only one authorized
to speak in public representing the party. I have seen more freedom of
expression in the WSM than in other so called communist parties. You should
join the RCPUSA and raise a critique against a saint called Bob Avakian, or
against a pope called Mao Tse Tung, wait for the results, or the
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada and raised a critique against Hardian
Vains, or the MPUSA that were similar to a convent or a monastery, at least
in the WSM we can raise a critique against Marx, Engels and we have
demystified Vladimir Lenin, I saw certain situation where the members of the
central committee and the members of another organizations were killing each
other just based on ideological and organization differences
Post by Paula
Robin
The only solution to capitalist problems is to join - or as a
minimum, not disagree with - the SPGB.
Anyone who thinks that they have an alternative route to socialism
will be shot down in flames.
So don't come to our forum Robin, and expect to get away with anything.
Graham has my full backing.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-28 16:39:14 UTC
Permalink
I think the principles of socialism have been established already, the
separation of socialist ideology and bourgeois ideology have been demarked
already, and the difference between state capitalism and socialism has also
been established since the XX century, and the battle for ideas have been
carried since that era, what is taking place here, it is called ideological
struggle, and we are going to see the same struggle for many years and
decades, even on a real socialist society we are going to have battles of
ideas, until the elimination of the bourgeois ideology from our consciences,
and maybe another battle of ideas will emerge.

In the socialist party the ideas are not preserved for a small group, our
ideas are for everybody, and we want to spread those ideas thru the whole
world, that is reason why we call ourselves the World Socialist Movement,
and that is reason why we have companion parties, and that is the reason why
we have a magazine/newspaper called the Socialist Standard, and we believe
that, if we do not have a majority with socialist education and the desires
for socialism, we will not make a revolution, a new society will come
through a social revolution, but we can not make a revolution as
individuals, we must be part of a socialist movement, and part of a
socialist party, because a socialist party is the representation of a
particular class, called the working class, that is the reason why the
rulers have their own parties, and people are behind those parties, because
they do not have socialist education, we have been greatly influenced by the
bourgeois ideology, and the only way that we can remove those ideas from our
minds, is thru a socialist education, and we have written thousands of
articles sine 1904 until now,

I do not think that a socialist society is a homeless society, it is a new
society that has not taking place in any part of the world, but it will be a
society based on the principle that each according to their needs and will
create free access to those things produced by the working class, the
working class does not have to pay for anything, because everything is
produced by the workers, and even more as Paul Lafargue wrote, we have the
right to laziness, and human being will be able to do different things in
their lives, the concept of labor would be different, and labor is not going
to be a burden on our back, it will become the creativity process of
mankind.

We have been brainwashed by the rulers, or we have been purchased by the
rulers, creating on us the idea, that we must be part of their world, by
presenting their world as the best thing that we can have, and making us
believe that capitalism will be eternal, and we must be constantly consuming
their products and their commodities in order to survive, and creating false
happiness by the possession of their commodity, by creating false
illusions in our minds, and they have created a false illusion called the
middle class, which does not exists, and another one called the working
class, it sound that there is a class that is not working and another class
that is working all the time, but it is just a false conception, that make
one group to believe that they are in better conditions, because they own
certain commodity, purchased by credits, that is the reason why they have
created the so called American dream, and Malcom X called it the American
Nightmare, which is nothing exclusive of any country or any nationality, my
mother and my father, had the same dreams, and they never had to go into
debt in order to live their own lives, and having heart problems, fear and
anxiety, and they live in another country. Millions of people have lost
what their called their homes, cars, boats, RV, when in reality those things
belonged to the bankers, and now most of them are homeless, and the society
can not help them, they have been thrown on the street like trash, in the
capitalist society we do not own anything, everything belongs to the
capitalists, including our labor force, we are real prostitute, we are
brainwashed by them, if we loose our jobs we are homeless, we go into
bankruptcy, this is the real homeless society. I have worked with homeless
and many of them have been home owners, and many of them have mental
problems
Post by tetraedronico
I don't believe that one need to pay a fee to become a socialist or make
contributions to earn a right to say anything about socialism. I've seen
here some folks making distinctions between party members and sympathizers,
in such a dismissive way that pains me because I'm not a member, never been
and I'm not sure I will.
I don't think people necessarely need to join a party to become
Socialists. A socialist to me is a person that believes in the fundamental
principles behind socialism, this is not a secret society as far as I know,
where the truth is only revealed to the upper members of their clans, so I
agree with you Marcos, Socialism is not a revealed truth communicated from
above, nevertheless we need to be mature enough to know how to confront our
ideas with the rest of our group and be humble sometimes to leave behind
certains erroneous and preconceived ideas like this one of Socialist Society
equals Homeless-like Society, this is a fallacy and it is very important to
understand so that we can approach non-Socialists and demistify this notion
that only brings fears and create unreasonable rejection, Socialism is very
unpopular because it's widely misunderstood and it is our duty to be well
inform and well prepared when we spread the word. The last century
revolutions that ended up in State capitalism has been very unfavorable to
this movement to the extent that most people think that we want to go back
to such kind of society, like peasants in a Russian state, or being homeless
in eastern Berlin, or having a one-child policy on top of us, or living in
the missery of the Cuban state, we need to work harder in order to draw a
clear line between a pseudo socialist state and a world wide Socialist
society and what should the people expect from the two antagonistic
philosophies.
Good night.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 20:27:53
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin
Have you ever been a member of any vanguard party ? Under the vanguard
party, members must agree on everything that comes from the central
committee, and the so called democratic centralism never works, and even if
you do not agree in certain issue, one must agree because it was approved by
the central committee, and the only ones allow to write in the newspaper are
the members of the central committee, and they are the only one authorized
to speak in public representing the party. I have seen more freedom of
expression in the WSM than in other so called communist parties. You should
join the RCPUSA and raise a critique against a saint called Bob Avakian, or
against a pope called Mao Tse Tung, wait for the results, or the
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada and raised a critique against Hardian
Vains, or the MPUSA that were similar to a convent or a monastery, at least
in the WSM we can raise a critique against Marx, Engels and we have
demystified Vladimir Lenin, I saw certain situation where the members of the
central committee and the members of another organizations were killing each
other just based on ideological and organization differences
Post by Paula
Robin
The only solution to capitalist problems is to join - or as a
minimum, not disagree with - the SPGB.
Anyone who thinks that they have an alternative route to socialism
will be shot down in flames.
So don't come to our forum Robin, and expect to get away with anything.
Graham has my full backing.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-28 14:22:04 UTC
Permalink
You said:
"I think you must work a little more in your ideological education, then you will understand the concept of a socialist
party"

What?? I never said I was opposed to forming socialist parties Marcos, and I did understood you when you mentioned the vanguard parties, this is why I said that I agree with you, that the truth about socialism is not like a revealed truth that the church use.

But yet again you try to make me feel like I'm a stupid that I don't know about the basic concept of commodities in the eyes of Karl Marx and now you said I don't know about the concept of "socialist parties" either. I'm not the stupid you think I am or do I need to join the vanguard party in order to receive the revealed truth?


Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Marcos Colome <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 23:55:08
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin

Socialists do need a party, in the same manner that the bourgoise needs a
party. without a political organization it would be very hard for the
working to be able to create the collectivization of the means of
productions. I think you have confused my message, I am talking about the
vanguard party, the vanguard party is totally different to the World
Socialist Movment and its companion parties. We do not have a central
commitee, and we do not have leaders, our guide is not the Leninist book
What is to be donde? this is a different conception, the vanguard party is
a conception of Karl Kautsy and Ferdinand Lasalle placed in practice by the
bolshevik, we were opponents of the bolshevik and Lenin since the very
beginning and history has proven that we were totally correct. Before I
joined this party I did a long homework, before joining this party I was a
member of the Socialist Labor Party of the US.( which I consider a good
party ) If for any reason I must leave this party, i will not join any
other party, (or I will join the SLP, even that I do not agree with
socialism in one country,) because this is the best party in the whole
working class movement. I think you must work a little more in your
ideological education, then you will understand the concept of a socialist
party
Post by tetraedronico
I don't believe that one need to pay a fee to become a socialist or make
contributions to earn a right to say anything about socialism. I've seen
here some folks making distinctions between party members and sympathizers,
in such a dismissive way that pains me because I'm not a member, never been
and I'm not sure I will.
I don't think people necessarely need to join a party to become
Socialists. A socialist to me is a person that believes in the fundamental
principles behind socialism, this is not a secret society as far as I know,
where the truth is only revealed to the upper members of their clans, so I
agree with you Marcos, Socialism is not a revealed truth communicated from
above, nevertheless we need to be mature enough to know how to confront our
ideas with the rest of our group and be humble sometimes to leave behind
certains erroneous and preconceived ideas like this one of Socialist Society
equals Homeless-like Society, this is a fallacy and it is very important to
understand so that we can approach non-Socialists and demistify this notion
that only brings fears and create unreasonable rejection, Socialism is very
unpopular because it's widely misunderstood and it is our duty to be well
inform and well prepared when we spread the word. The last century
revolutions that ended up in State capitalism has been very unfavorable to
this movement to the extent that most people think that we want to go back
to such kind of society, like peasants in a Russian state, or being homeless
in eastern Berlin, or having a one-child policy on top of us, or living in
the missery of the Cuban state, we need to work harder in order to draw a
clear line between a pseudo socialist state and a world wide Socialist
society and what should the people expect from the two antagonistic
philosophies.
Good night.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 20:27:53
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin
Have you ever been a member of any vanguard party ? Under the vanguard
party, members must agree on everything that comes from the central
committee, and the so called democratic centralism never works, and even
if
you do not agree in certain issue, one must agree because it was approved
by
the central committee, and the only ones allow to write in the newspaper
are
the members of the central committee, and they are the only one authorized
to speak in public representing the party. I have seen more freedom of
expression in the WSM than in other so called communist parties. You
should
join the RCPUSA and raise a critique against a saint called Bob Avakian,
or
against a pope called Mao Tse Tung, wait for the results, or the
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada and raised a critique against Hardian
Vains, or the MPUSA that were similar to a convent or a monastery, at
least
in the WSM we can raise a critique against Marx, Engels and we have
demystified Vladimir Lenin, I saw certain situation where the members of
the
central committee and the members of another organizations were killing
each
other just based on ideological and organization differences
Post by Paula
Robin
The only solution to capitalist problems is to join - or as a
minimum, not disagree with - the SPGB.
Anyone who thinks that they have an alternative route to socialism
will be shot down in flames.
So don't come to our forum Robin, and expect to get away with anything.
Graham has my full backing.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorbesador. html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor besador!
Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorbesador.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marcos Colome
2007-10-28 16:23:09 UTC
Permalink
I am not saying that you are stupid, what I am saying is that many things in
order to be understood they require the proper knowledge, even Hegel said
that we must go thru the pain and suffering to obtaing the knowledge, the
vanguard party is a concept elaborated by Vladimir Lenin, and it is well
explained on his work What is to be done ? and that book used to be the
training book for new members of any communist party, as well the book about
Historical Materialism written by Martha Hannecker, ( today she is the
political counselor of Hugo Chavez, and before she was the political
counselor of Salvador Allende ) and her book contained my philosophical
errors, because she based most of her ideas on Lenin Materialism and
Empirocriticism, which has been critiqued by Anton Pannecock, and he has
proven that Lenin was not a philosopher.

I did conduct many study groups about those two books, but I did not know
the idea behind of that book ( What is to be done ) until I started to read
the oppose view about the vanguard party written by Raya Dunayeskaya, but
Raya did not know the all the philosophical mistake made by Lenin on his
philosophical book, but I did Anton Pannecock, which gave the ground to
question Leninism, and I knew most of the works of Lenin, and by reading the
works of the SPGB I was able to go deeper in order to be able to reject
Leninism. The new member that joins the SPGB?WSM were in better shapes than
me, because they did not have to go thru the same process like I did.

There are thousands of communists that are still hanging in those ideas,
even more, Leon Trotsky that wrote millions of words, died believing in the
vanguard party, and believing that Russia was a socialist nation.( while
others people had a different view ) even Lenin had given the clue, when he
said tha state capitalism was a stage toward socialism, in reality he was
recognizing that he was mistaken, and he knew that it was impossible to
build a socialist society in a backward country like Russia, where millions
of peasant did not provide support to the bolshevik, they only wanted land,
bread and freedom, which was the main slogan of the bolshevik party

A college degree will not give anybody the political education in order to
understand certain topics, I met many factories workers that knew more than
me about socialist ideas. Many years ago, I had a friend called Felix Martin
that he was well versed on the ideas of Hegel and Feuerbach and he gave me
lectures about Hegel Science of Logic, and being a proletarian workers he
was the editor of a newspaper.

Workers do not even understand the concept of a bourgeois party, when most
of the workers are always voting for the rulers, if they had the proper
ideas or concept about the purpose of a bourgeois party, they would not
stand behind their own rulers, a bourgeois party is the political and
economical representation of the interests of the rulers, therefore a
socialist party is the representative of the political and economical
interests of the working class, and it is the only instrument that the
working class would be able to take control of the state and to do the
collectivization of the means of productions and the purpose at the present
time of a socialist party is to provide the proper political education to
the working class,

We are learning socialists ideas every day and it takes times and years to
understand , because we learn by the experiences of others peoples, I have
learned a lot with the old members of the WSM?SPGB and I started in the
movement when I was a very young person, and I still I am learning, and I if
am learning it does not mean that I am stupid, it means that I am ignorant
of many topics, and still, I am ignorant about many issues,

Marx and Engels did not have times to cover certain topics, and many times
the had to change or correct their ideas, because capitalism was not fully
developed and it only existed in a few countries, and they learned many
ideas from the workers, even more, before the Manifest was written, the
workers had already provided many of those ideas, ( some people says that
Marx is the movement from practice into a theory ) and in certain moments
they were mistaken too, Marx was only able to complete one volume of
Capital, and he said that in order to write his complete works, they had to
be written again, and by reading the Grundisse we can see that he was going
to write six books
Post by tetraedronico
"I think you must work a little more in your ideological education, then
you will understand the concept of a socialist
party"
What?? I never said I was opposed to forming socialist parties Marcos, and
I did understood you when you mentioned the vanguard parties, this is why I
said that I agree with you, that the truth about socialism is not like a
revealed truth that the church use.
But yet again you try to make me feel like I'm a stupid that I don't know
about the basic concept of commodities in the eyes of Karl Marx and now you
said I don't know about the concept of "socialist parties" either. I'm not
the stupid you think I am or do I need to join the vanguard party in order
to receive the revealed truth?
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 23:55:08
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin
Socialists do need a party, in the same manner that the bourgoise needs a
party. without a political organization it would be very hard for the
working to be able to create the collectivization of the means of
productions. I think you have confused my message, I am talking about the
vanguard party, the vanguard party is totally different to the World
Socialist Movment and its companion parties. We do not have a central
commitee, and we do not have leaders, our guide is not the Leninist book
What is to be donde? this is a different conception, the vanguard party is
a conception of Karl Kautsy and Ferdinand Lasalle placed in practice by the
bolshevik, we were opponents of the bolshevik and Lenin since the very
beginning and history has proven that we were totally correct. Before I
joined this party I did a long homework, before joining this party I was a
member of the Socialist Labor Party of the US.( which I consider a good
party ) If for any reason I must leave this party, i will not join any
other party, (or I will join the SLP, even that I do not agree with
socialism in one country,) because this is the best party in the whole
working class movement. I think you must work a little more in your
ideological education, then you will understand the concept of a socialist
party
Post by tetraedronico
I don't believe that one need to pay a fee to become a socialist or make
contributions to earn a right to say anything about socialism. I've seen
here some folks making distinctions between party members and
sympathizers,
Post by tetraedronico
in such a dismissive way that pains me because I'm not a member, never
been
Post by tetraedronico
and I'm not sure I will.
I don't think people necessarely need to join a party to become
Socialists. A socialist to me is a person that believes in the
fundamental
Post by tetraedronico
principles behind socialism, this is not a secret society as far as I
know,
Post by tetraedronico
where the truth is only revealed to the upper members of their clans, so
I
Post by tetraedronico
agree with you Marcos, Socialism is not a revealed truth communicated
from
Post by tetraedronico
above, nevertheless we need to be mature enough to know how to confront
our
Post by tetraedronico
ideas with the rest of our group and be humble sometimes to leave behind
certains erroneous and preconceived ideas like this one of Socialist
Society
Post by tetraedronico
equals Homeless-like Society, this is a fallacy and it is very important
to
Post by tetraedronico
understand so that we can approach non-Socialists and demistify this
notion
Post by tetraedronico
that only brings fears and create unreasonable rejection, Socialism is
very
Post by tetraedronico
unpopular because it's widely misunderstood and it is our duty to be
well
Post by tetraedronico
inform and well prepared when we spread the word. The last century
revolutions that ended up in State capitalism has been very unfavorable
to
Post by tetraedronico
this movement to the extent that most people think that we want to go
back
Post by tetraedronico
to such kind of society, like peasants in a Russian state, or being
homeless
Post by tetraedronico
in eastern Berlin, or having a one-child policy on top of us, or living
in
Post by tetraedronico
the missery of the Cuban state, we need to work harder in order to draw
a
Post by tetraedronico
clear line between a pseudo socialist state and a world wide Socialist
society and what should the people expect from the two antagonistic
philosophies.
Good night.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 20:27:53
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin
Have you ever been a member of any vanguard party ? Under the vanguard
party, members must agree on everything that comes from the central
committee, and the so called democratic centralism never works, and even
if
you do not agree in certain issue, one must agree because it was
approved
Post by tetraedronico
by
the central committee, and the only ones allow to write in the newspaper
are
the members of the central committee, and they are the only one
authorized
Post by tetraedronico
to speak in public representing the party. I have seen more freedom of
expression in the WSM than in other so called communist parties. You
should
join the RCPUSA and raise a critique against a saint called Bob Avakian,
or
against a pope called Mao Tse Tung, wait for the results, or the
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada and raised a critique against Hardian
Vains, or the MPUSA that were similar to a convent or a monastery, at
least
in the WSM we can raise a critique against Marx, Engels and we have
demystified Vladimir Lenin, I saw certain situation where the members of
the
central committee and the members of another organizations were killing
each
other just based on ideological and organization differences
Post by Paula
Robin
The only solution to capitalist problems is to join - or as a
minimum, not disagree with - the SPGB.
Anyone who thinks that they have an alternative route to socialism
will be shot down in flames.
So don't come to our forum Robin, and expect to get away with
anything.
Post by tetraedronico
Post by Paula
Graham has my full backing.
Paula
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Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
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Comparte todo lo que sabes sobre besos.
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tetraedronico
2007-10-28 14:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Nick,

My point is that no matter how poor you are you still have a computer with internet, keyboard, monitor and CD-ROM, those "little toys" you accuse us to be in love with, and in previous post you're saying that we don't have enough resources in this planet to put this kind of toys in every human being and that we need to reduce the population (most people will think concentration camps). Let me say this straight, I respect you and respect your lifestyle but I don't agree with you guys when you say that a socialist revolution will bring the general public life-style down to a homeless and beggar like status in order to "save the planet". the enviromental crisis you talk about is a boogey man created mostly by politicians when they're trying to push their political agendas, many respected scientist are saying that global warming is being caused by the increasing solar activity as other planets such as Mars as having their polar ice caps melted.

My second point is that we need to let the future socialist society decide what kind of life-style they want to live on, how much work they're willing to do and how much resources they feel like they need to consume, I totally agree with your personal oppinion that material good don't necessarely bring happiness, that's not being disputed but many people wont agree with you on that, pediod, that's why we can't approach non-socialist and communicate them our erroneous conclusions that everybody will have to make sacrifices, because they're already predisposed to reject the socialist theory because of the failed revolutions that ended in state capitalism, we need to be more intelligent than that. I think the root of our differences lie in that you are approaching the discussion on how your personal life-style is in this capitalist world and I'm trying to discuss what's the best approach when it comes to communicate the socialist theories to non-socialist
(without lying, of course), I'll wait for your reply in case you have anything to add. Regards.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Nick Tapping <***@ntlworld.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: domingo, 28 de octubre, 2007 2:02:13
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Dear techno, please read posts carefully, i have not stated or am pretending to live an ascetic life. i stated that the MOST qualitive time was WHEN I did live [what intellectual twats] call an acsetic lifestyle. At the moment I dont, but is something I am returning too, but looking after 2 daughters age 15 months and 8 years , its taking a little bit of time. [also social conditions have changed since the 80s in the UK , its much more difficult to find free land so i am looking abroad.]
Our family income is under £15,000 pa,[ family of 4] in the UK that makes us pretty poor, but we still manage to save money, becuase we dont buy new and we hardly buy anything apart from [good] food and cloths. we have a very qualitive life, our kids are great, intellegent [the 8 year old always at the top of her class [not for any genetic reason but because she knows she is of value, and gets real time and real communication from her parents [ non of our relationships are mediated with things] unlike our neighboors whos heads are fucked up, lie, steal, play mindgames, cant accept responsibility for their actions, dim, and get lots of new toys.

My point is quality of life does not equate to material goods..... this is a capitalist and bourgious
myth

im not asking people to make sacrifices either, Im telling them that if they start trying to resolve their contradictions they will have a better life and be a better influence on society and the planet as a whole..

----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Nick,

Nobody is saying that Vagabonds will not exist in Socialism. There's no reason to feel threatened.
But the mere fact that you're wasting your time here, using your home computer, with Internet connection, is truly revealing.
Don't try to pretend that you are living an ascetic life. I can take you to my relatives ranch down in Mexico to show you what an ascetic life really is.

You said to me:
"what to say to you idiots, you little boys who love their toys?"

Are you writing this from under a bridge? Minimum you have a computer with Internet, (aren't these toys?) why are you denying the rest of the people to have this that you enjoy? only 18% of world population have computer with internet access and you're taking part of this.

Please end your hypocrisy now and refrain from telling people that they need to take sacrifices that you yourself are clearly not taking and not willing to take.

Tetraedrónico

----- Mensaje original ----
De: Nick Tapping <***@ntlworld. com>
Para: ***@yahoogrou ps.com
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 15:33:32
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Well, while we are into a ranting mode
ive lived a full, luvly life considering i live in a capitlist, consumer nightmare or wet dream [which ever your perspective ]
I lived high lifes, taxis , hotels spending a grand in a weekend sort of thing, i lived low lifes , ive been a beggar on 3 different continents [im not bullshitting]
you know the richest, most qualitive time, where i experienced the max of self growth and learning in my life was ?
livin in a caravan in west wales with no electricity, and no runnning water on less that £20.00 a week [it was the 80s]
[yeah chopping wood warms you twice]
most politicians would describe the way i lived as poverty and a poverty that should be eliminated [inexpereinced, patsy faced twats] but maybe theyre right because what it produces is real people who learn how to live with time instead of learning how to aviod it. Real people who face their contradictions and live to resolve them [the internal dialectic]. People who can live as much as materially possible to their ideals.
what to say to you idiots, you little boys who love their toys?
supporting socialism as an idea, selling out to capitalism for shiny beads and things
your lives are in fantasy and denial ? you re lacking in life experience, what you think you know is based on what youve read in books and presumptions?
youve based the whole of you lives on some kind of psudo material security and the aquisistion of toys?
that its your pre-occupation with materialism that stifles your development and experience? that your indulgence of toys stops you experiencing a deeper, more meaningfull and mysterious reality?
Im not go to say any of that to you [because you will never accept it], Im going to say this to you instead:
KNUMSKULLS wake up! our environment cannot handle the level of material production to keep the worlds population sedated with the material wealth that you are used to.
Childish , dreamboats , the socialist paradise , yeah all the virgins will give free blow jobs as well,
At the moment we are facing an environmental nightmare when only a third of the worlds population has access to the commodity markets and two thirds of those have very limited access, so when the revolution happens those africans, asian, south americans are going to say Hey mon give me a new scanner, mobile , computers ipod telescopes printed central heating inhouse electric, fueled individual transporters Tvs, DVD writer
after world war 2 the communist were saying the same thing too, god, suckers of unrealistic properganda. .... dream on.
the good news is [if we are not going to give up most of our arable land to the growth of bio fuels] is there is plenty of land to grow plenty of food for everyone. A massive abundance of it if we turn vegetarian.
god bless the lentil
shit on you explioters and murderers of other sentient life forms.
you are either part of the problem or part of the solution, if you are waffling on about socialism and selling out to capitalism then apart from being a bad example, you are part of the problem.

----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

All,

I think we're discussing and arguing about two opposite points of views here, but I think everybody will like to end this not by insults but with ideas and agreement, after all, we all are socialist friends in one way or the other.

Without having to point fingers here, I can see the clear difference between those who think that society as a whole will need to take further sacrifices and those who think that life styles will remain or improve, myself including in this category.

Whatever your inclination may be regarding this you should tell why and avoid confrontations. we need to share our point of view and move on.

The reason why I lean towards of the remaining or improving of the lifestyles it's because I truly believe that this will be possible. I believe that every single one of us can and will perfectly enjoy all the good and services we have today, including vehicles and electro-domestics appliances, or even obscure services like cable television. Or at least initially until the socialist free market of supply and demand proves that certain goods or practices are unsustainable, but I truly believe that a socialist society will try to maximize the use of the raw materials in order to produce the same goods we have today, providing first all the basic human needs. In the future, practices such as eating meat, chicken or fish may prove unsustainable and may be reduce by massive PR showing scientific evidence of it, the meat industry itself will be the one saying it's unsustainble, as oppose of today in Capitalism, that the poultry industry says "eat more cow" and
the meat industry says "eat more chicken", but initially I don't think that society will be willing to give up these "pleasures" (I personaly find these repulsive). we need to understand that society will never buy into Socialism if we approach them saying that they need to take these kind of sacrifices because that is too unrealistic, let the future Socialist Society the one that decides which goods or services are unsustainable, not us. I have read many times including in the socialist standard magazine that we have ample resources to feed a planet populations many times as big as the current one and we do have plenty raw materials to put a good vehicle in every household that wishes to have the freedom of movement. Maybe in the future Socialist Society we all will indeed be like homeless as you guys say in order to standarize the way of living across all humans in this world, what I don't agree is that you try to approach the general public and try
to sell this conclusion that you're not sure about, even worse I also don't agree that you say that you need to kill 80% of the human population, this is not what I have learn in my few months of reading the socialist standard.

Tetraedrónico

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo. yahoo.com. mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor asador!
Aprende todo sobre asados.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor asador!
Aprende todo sobre asados.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorasador.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nick Tapping
2007-10-28 19:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Techno, no one has said we have to live like beggars or homeless people after a socialist revolution.

Now when you talk about the majority do you talk about the majority of world citizens or the minority of them that enjoy a western style consumer economy?

Because if you are talking about the majority of world citizens [ African, india Pakistan china s.america etc] most do not enjoy the consumer paradise we live in in the west . If we had a self governing moneyless society, based on social equality I would expect them to be much better off than they are now.

As for the rich minority who have a comftable access to the commodity markets I expect them not to be so materially well off as they are now.

In approaching the non socialist, i think its best to be honest and realistic. Also we don’t even need to bring up the term socialist or socialism [the term has had so much miss use]

Social equality equates to the same thing . social equality = equal access to the decision making process and equal access to goods and services [only the socialist don’t like this?] Call a spade a spade. Social equality = a self governing moneyless society.

----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.


Nick,

My point is that no matter how poor you are you still have a computer with internet, keyboard, monitor and CD-ROM, those "little toys" you accuse us to be in love with, and in previous post you're saying that we don't have enough resources in this planet to put this kind of toys in every human being and that we need to reduce the population (most people will think concentration camps). Let me say this straight, I respect you and respect your lifestyle but I don't agree with you guys when you say that a socialist revolution will bring the general public life-style down to a homeless and beggar like status in order to "save the planet". the enviromental crisis you talk about is a boogey man created mostly by politicians when they're trying to push their political agendas, many respected scientist are saying that global warming is being caused by the increasing solar activity as other planets such as Mars as having their polar ice caps melted.

My second point is that we need to let the future socialist society decide what kind of life-style they want to live on, how much work they're willing to do and how much resources they feel like they need to consume, I totally agree with your personal oppinion that material good don't necessarely bring happiness, that's not being disputed but many people wont agree with you on that, pediod, that's why we can't approach non-socialist and communicate them our erroneous conclusions that everybody will have to make sacrifices, because they're already predisposed to reject the socialist theory because of the failed revolutions that ended in state capitalism, we need to be more intelligent than that. I think the root of our differences lie in that you are approaching the discussion on how your personal life-style is in this capitalist world and I'm trying to discuss what's the best approach when it comes to communicate the socialist theories to non-socialist
(without lying, of course), I'll wait for your reply in case you have anything to add. Regards.

Tetraedrónico

----- Mensaje original ----
De: Nick Tapping <***@ntlworld.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: domingo, 28 de octubre, 2007 2:02:13
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Dear techno, please read posts carefully, i have not stated or am pretending to live an ascetic life. i stated that the MOST qualitive time was WHEN I did live [what intellectual twats] call an acsetic lifestyle. At the moment I dont, but is something I am returning too, but looking after 2 daughters age 15 months and 8 years , its taking a little bit of time. [also social conditions have changed since the 80s in the UK , its much more difficult to find free land so i am looking abroad.]
Our family income is under £15,000 pa,[ family of 4] in the UK that makes us pretty poor, but we still manage to save money, becuase we dont buy new and we hardly buy anything apart from [good] food and cloths. we have a very qualitive life, our kids are great, intellegent [the 8 year old always at the top of her class [not for any genetic reason but because she knows she is of value, and gets real time and real communication from her parents [ non of our relationships are mediated with things] unlike our neighboors whos heads are fucked up, lie, steal, play mindgames, cant accept responsibility for their actions, dim, and get lots of new toys.

My point is quality of life does not equate to material goods..... this is a capitalist and bourgious
myth

im not asking people to make sacrifices either, Im telling them that if they start trying to resolve their contradictions they will have a better life and be a better influence on society and the planet as a whole..

----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Nick,

Nobody is saying that Vagabonds will not exist in Socialism. There's no reason to feel threatened.
But the mere fact that you're wasting your time here, using your home computer, with Internet connection, is truly revealing.
Don't try to pretend that you are living an ascetic life. I can take you to my relatives ranch down in Mexico to show you what an ascetic life really is.

You said to me:
"what to say to you idiots, you little boys who love their toys?"

Are you writing this from under a bridge? Minimum you have a computer with Internet, (aren't these toys?) why are you denying the rest of the people to have this that you enjoy? only 18% of world population have computer with internet access and you're taking part of this.

Please end your hypocrisy now and refrain from telling people that they need to take sacrifices that you yourself are clearly not taking and not willing to take.

Tetraedrónico

----- Mensaje original ----
De: Nick Tapping <***@ntlworld. com>
Para: ***@yahoogrou ps.com
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 15:33:32
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Well, while we are into a ranting mode
ive lived a full, luvly life considering i live in a capitlist, consumer nightmare or wet dream [which ever your perspective ]
I lived high lifes, taxis , hotels spending a grand in a weekend sort of thing, i lived low lifes , ive been a beggar on 3 different continents [im not bullshitting]
you know the richest, most qualitive time, where i experienced the max of self growth and learning in my life was ?
livin in a caravan in west wales with no electricity, and no runnning water on less that £20.00 a week [it was the 80s]
[yeah chopping wood warms you twice]
most politicians would describe the way i lived as poverty and a poverty that should be eliminated [inexpereinced, patsy faced twats] but maybe theyre right because what it produces is real people who learn how to live with time instead of learning how to aviod it. Real people who face their contradictions and live to resolve them [the internal dialectic]. People who can live as much as materially possible to their ideals.
what to say to you idiots, you little boys who love their toys?
supporting socialism as an idea, selling out to capitalism for shiny beads and things
your lives are in fantasy and denial ? you re lacking in life experience, what you think you know is based on what youve read in books and presumptions?
youve based the whole of you lives on some kind of psudo material security and the aquisistion of toys?
that its your pre-occupation with materialism that stifles your development and experience? that your indulgence of toys stops you experiencing a deeper, more meaningfull and mysterious reality?
Im not go to say any of that to you [because you will never accept it], Im going to say this to you instead:
KNUMSKULLS wake up! our environment cannot handle the level of material production to keep the worlds population sedated with the material wealth that you are used to.
Childish , dreamboats , the socialist paradise , yeah all the virgins will give free blow jobs as well,
At the moment we are facing an environmental nightmare when only a third of the worlds population has access to the commodity markets and two thirds of those have very limited access, so when the revolution happens those africans, asian, south americans are going to say Hey mon give me a new scanner, mobile , computers ipod telescopes printed central heating inhouse electric, fueled individual transporters Tvs, DVD writer
after world war 2 the communist were saying the same thing too, god, suckers of unrealistic properganda. .... dream on.
the good news is [if we are not going to give up most of our arable land to the growth of bio fuels] is there is plenty of land to grow plenty of food for everyone. A massive abundance of it if we turn vegetarian.
god bless the lentil
shit on you explioters and murderers of other sentient life forms.
you are either part of the problem or part of the solution, if you are waffling on about socialism and selling out to capitalism then apart from being a bad example, you are part of the problem.

----- Original Message -----
From: tetraedronico
To: ***@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

All,

I think we're discussing and arguing about two opposite points of views here, but I think everybody will like to end this not by insults but with ideas and agreement, after all, we all are socialist friends in one way or the other.

Without having to point fingers here, I can see the clear difference between those who think that society as a whole will need to take further sacrifices and those who think that life styles will remain or improve, myself including in this category.

Whatever your inclination may be regarding this you should tell why and avoid confrontations. we need to share our point of view and move on.

The reason why I lean towards of the remaining or improving of the lifestyles it's because I truly believe that this will be possible. I believe that every single one of us can and will perfectly enjoy all the good and services we have today, including vehicles and electro-domestics appliances, or even obscure services like cable television. Or at least initially until the socialist free market of supply and demand proves that certain goods or practices are unsustainable, but I truly believe that a socialist society will try to maximize the use of the raw materials in order to produce the same goods we have today, providing first all the basic human needs. In the future, practices such as eating meat, chicken or fish may prove unsustainable and may be reduce by massive PR showing scientific evidence of it, the meat industry itself will be the one saying it's unsustainble, as oppose of today in Capitalism, that the poultry industry says "eat more cow" and
the meat industry says "eat more chicken", but initially I don't think that society will be willing to give up these "pleasures" (I personaly find these repulsive). we need to understand that society will never buy into Socialism if we approach them saying that they need to take these kind of sacrifices because that is too unrealistic, let the future Socialist Society the one that decides which goods or services are unsustainable, not us. I have read many times including in the socialist standard magazine that we have ample resources to feed a planet populations many times as big as the current one and we do have plenty raw materials to put a good vehicle in every household that wishes to have the freedom of movement. Maybe in the future Socialist Society we all will indeed be like homeless as you guys say in order to standarize the way of living across all humans in this world, what I don't agree is that you try to approach the general public and try
to sell this conclusion that you're not sure about, even worse I also don't agree that you say that you need to kill 80% of the human population, this is not what I have learn in my few months of reading the socialist standard.

Tetraedrónico

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo. yahoo.com. mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
¡Sé un mejor asador!
Aprende todo sobre asados.
http://mx.yahoo. com/promos/ mejorasador. html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor asador!
Aprende todo sobre asados.
http://mx.yahoo.com/promos/mejorasador.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-28 16:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Marcos

Can you expand on how Socialism "will not come through petty bourgeois ideology either".
What exactly do you mean by this?

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Marcos Colome <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: domingo, 28 de octubre, 2007 0:01:42
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin

It is totally correct, socialism will only come through a socialist
revolution, and probably we are going to have some opposition from the
rulers, and we must be ready to confront them in some manner, and we are
going to have some form of violence from them, they are not going to give
up so easily, and it will not come through petty bourgeois ideology either,
it will come thru a philosophy of liberation, that wanted to create a new
society, totally different to capitalism, no to reform this one,
Post by Graham Taylor
Socialism won't come through twee little life-style changes like
cycling, drinking only water and eating grass.
It will come through revolution.
------------ --------- --------- ---
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Capacidad ilimitada de almacenamiento en tu correo!
No te preocupes más por el espacio de tu cuenta con Correo Yahoo!:
http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tetraedronico
2007-10-28 16:29:33 UTC
Permalink
The bio-fuel today is being subsidized and not even the politicians believe that this is the answer to the energy crisis.
After the elimination of capitalism, the solution to the energy crisis will rest in the hands of the socialist society, they may find that moving to a house closer to work can save tremendous amount of energy, they may find that an electric car powered by solar panels is perfectly sustainable or they may develop new sources of renewable energy, but while we live in a capitalist society all of these alternative sources of energy will revolve around the price of the barrel of oil and they won't be economical viable, the oil industry has monopolized the energy industry and it won't be until all oil is consumed that other alternatives will truly emerge. It is a run against time, the sooner we move to a Socialist society the sooner we can stop the oil industry from controlling the energy of the planet and become the new emperors of the earth. I believe in Solar and Wind energy because it empowers the people to be self sufficient, something that oil carterls
really detest, and bio-fuels doesn't bring this freedom to the people.

Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Marcos Colome <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: domingo, 28 de octubre, 2007 2:02:16
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Re: Finding Socialist solutions to Capitalist problems.

Bio-fuel is not the solution to the probelm, some country the whole land is
going to use in order to plant corn, and corn is going to be planted by the
big rich farmers, and the planting of corns is going to create more
ecological problem than petroleum, because the land is not going to rest and
the small peasants are going into bankruptcy amd they big farmers are going
to eliminate the peasants and many are going into hunger, or they are going
to emigrating to another country, the penetration fo foreign capital is
going to create invasion and war frictions and the impositions of
dictatorship. The best solution is the elimination of capitalism, not the
reformation of capitalism, the solution can not be left in the hands of the
ruling class, it must be taken by the working class.
Post by trotfinder2007
Post by Nick Tapping
Hes either jealous of you Robin or you make him aware of his
contradictions.
Given the crappy social environment of the big city and that it
feels like it always rains and is cold in Denmark, who wouldn't want
to be in pleasing countryside in Spain?
The thing is it is no good attacking the working class for the way
it lives as a critique of society, which is what it boils down to in
the end.
If ecological destruction is your worry, address the Capitalist
System. A particular example is the biofuel. It's a lucrative
market, with lots of juicy profits to be had, so land is being
cleared of rain forest to plant crops for fuel - once such an
ecosystem is gone it will never come back. The apes are under threat
of extinction; removing tree cover opens up land to the dangers of
quick erosion; and the forests are Carbon sinks with a non-trivial
impact on climate. The food market is seeing rising prices because
farmers are using a bigger percentage of their yields to cash in on
biofuels. Yet the present generation of biofuel production isn't
efficient nor does it save much on the Carbon footprint, as some of
its advocates make out.
In a life-style way, use the bus and avoid the use of tropical wood
for sure. Perhaps even stop using palm oil products, which will be
quite hard as many of the products in shops derive from it.
But that will do precious little unless we, the workers, take back
the land from the ownership of the Capitalist Class.
the consumer society of capitalism is part of socialist criticism,
as in the fetishism of commodities. It is NOT the be all and end all
of socialism, which centrally addresses the question of classes and
property society.
Graham
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





____________________________________________________________________________________
¡Sé un mejor fotógrafo!
Perfecciona tu técnica y encuentra las mejores fotos.
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trotfinder2007
2007-10-28 18:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tetra

Biofuels aren't strictly a dead end. There is a "second generation"
of biofuels on the way. See "Scientific American", January 2007, for
the technical details - reproduced here http://tinyurl.com/2aps2b

The question though is still one of where to grow the crops. It's
not one that can be satisfactorily answered of course with
capitalism's myopic need for profits and capital accumulation.

A similar point can be made re. wind farms.

In all of this, there is the need to evaluate what sort of effect
turning land over to biofuel production or building a wind farm will
have on the environment. (In the case of the latter, one must never
forget bird migrations!)

Graham
tetraedronico
2007-10-28 17:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Marcos,

For what I understood, you are very experienced in matters of socialism and I have no doubt about it.
You say that for everybody, learning Socialism is "difficult, lenghty and painful", that you learned it the hard way by making a lot mistakes, that you first believed the marxist-leninist theories but later you wake-up and decided that Lenin and Trotsky were wrong, and that many communist still believe this and that they're wrong. I respect your oppinion, but I don't agree that learning socialism is that difficult, furthermore, I don't believe Socialism SHOULD be like this. Socialism should be a series of simple concepts that every human being can understand quickly, we cannot afford that every single human being can go to a similar process that you went through in order to learn what Socialism truly is. Just look at my example, I believe in the same Socialism that you and most of us here believe and I didn't had to suffer the leninist theories, I'm not an ignorant either, I know that leninism is responsible to what happen in Russia after the bolchevik
revolution, I know what a vanguard party is, and I have always known this since probably many months know. Please stop trying to diminish or dismissing my comments just because you feel I'm an ignorant, for example, in our previous exchange, I was saying that people won't give up easily their material possesions, they won't give easily their TV sets or SUV's and you said to me that I don't understand the concept of commodities. You're trying to dismiss my point based on your conclusion that I'm an ignorant, but you're still left with the duty of proving me wrong: That people will easly be willing to give up their possesions (Just because Marx says so). I'm telling you, people won't be willing to do this, and if we try to do this they will only keep rejecting us. I know I'm not willing to give my possessions, for what I understand, we can live perfectly a Socialist world and have them. I don't want to live in a socialist society that is worst than this
one in terms of what choices does it brings.


Tetraedrónico



----- Mensaje original ----
De: Marcos Colome <***@gmail.com>
Para: ***@yahoogroups.com
Enviado: domingo, 28 de octubre, 2007 12:23:09
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin

I am not saying that you are stupid, what I am saying is that many things in
order to be understood they require the proper knowledge, even Hegel said
that we must go thru the pain and suffering to obtaing the knowledge, the
vanguard party is a concept elaborated by Vladimir Lenin, and it is well
explained on his work What is to be done ? and that book used to be the
training book for new members of any communist party, as well the book about
Historical Materialism written by Martha Hannecker, ( today she is the
political counselor of Hugo Chavez, and before she was the political
counselor of Salvador Allende ) and her book contained my philosophical
errors, because she based most of her ideas on Lenin Materialism and
Empirocriticism, which has been critiqued by Anton Pannecock, and he has
proven that Lenin was not a philosopher.

I did conduct many study groups about those two books, but I did not know
the idea behind of that book ( What is to be done ) until I started to read
the oppose view about the vanguard party written by Raya Dunayeskaya, but
Raya did not know the all the philosophical mistake made by Lenin on his
philosophical book, but I did Anton Pannecock, which gave the ground to
question Leninism, and I knew most of the works of Lenin, and by reading the
works of the SPGB I was able to go deeper in order to be able to reject
Leninism. The new member that joins the SPGB?WSM were in better shapes than
me, because they did not have to go thru the same process like I did.

There are thousands of communists that are still hanging in those ideas,
even more, Leon Trotsky that wrote millions of words, died believing in the
vanguard party, and believing that Russia was a socialist nation.( while
others people had a different view ) even Lenin had given the clue, when he
said tha state capitalism was a stage toward socialism, in reality he was
recognizing that he was mistaken, and he knew that it was impossible to
build a socialist society in a backward country like Russia, where millions
of peasant did not provide support to the bolshevik, they only wanted land,
bread and freedom, which was the main slogan of the bolshevik party

A college degree will not give anybody the political education in order to
understand certain topics, I met many factories workers that knew more than
me about socialist ideas. Many years ago, I had a friend called Felix Martin
that he was well versed on the ideas of Hegel and Feuerbach and he gave me
lectures about Hegel Science of Logic, and being a proletarian workers he
was the editor of a newspaper.

Workers do not even understand the concept of a bourgeois party, when most
of the workers are always voting for the rulers, if they had the proper
ideas or concept about the purpose of a bourgeois party, they would not
stand behind their own rulers, a bourgeois party is the political and
economical representation of the interests of the rulers, therefore a
socialist party is the representative of the political and economical
interests of the working class, and it is the only instrument that the
working class would be able to take control of the state and to do the
collectivization of the means of productions and the purpose at the present
time of a socialist party is to provide the proper political education to
the working class,

We are learning socialists ideas every day and it takes times and years to
understand , because we learn by the experiences of others peoples, I have
learned a lot with the old members of the WSM?SPGB and I started in the
movement when I was a very young person, and I still I am learning, and I if
am learning it does not mean that I am stupid, it means that I am ignorant
of many topics, and still, I am ignorant about many issues,

Marx and Engels did not have times to cover certain topics, and many times
the had to change or correct their ideas, because capitalism was not fully
developed and it only existed in a few countries, and they learned many
ideas from the workers, even more, before the Manifest was written, the
workers had already provided many of those ideas, ( some people says that
Marx is the movement from practice into a theory ) and in certain moments
they were mistaken too, Marx was only able to complete one volume of
Capital, and he said that in order to write his complete works, they had to
be written again, and by reading the Grundisse we can see that he was going
to write six books
Post by tetraedronico
"I think you must work a little more in your ideological education, then
you will understand the concept of a socialist
party"
What?? I never said I was opposed to forming socialist parties Marcos, and
I did understood you when you mentioned the vanguard parties, this is why I
said that I agree with you, that the truth about socialism is not like a
revealed truth that the church use.
But yet again you try to make me feel like I'm a stupid that I don't know
about the basic concept of commodities in the eyes of Karl Marx and now you
said I don't know about the concept of "socialist parties" either. I'm not
the stupid you think I am or do I need to join the vanguard party in order
to receive the revealed truth?
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 23:55:08
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin
Socialists do need a party, in the same manner that the bourgoise needs a
party. without a political organization it would be very hard for the
working to be able to create the collectivization of the means of
productions. I think you have confused my message, I am talking about the
vanguard party, the vanguard party is totally different to the World
Socialist Movment and its companion parties. We do not have a central
commitee, and we do not have leaders, our guide is not the Leninist book
What is to be donde? this is a different conception, the vanguard party is
a conception of Karl Kautsy and Ferdinand Lasalle placed in practice by
the
bolshevik, we were opponents of the bolshevik and Lenin since the very
beginning and history has proven that we were totally correct. Before I
joined this party I did a long homework, before joining this party I was a
member of the Socialist Labor Party of the US.( which I consider a good
party ) If for any reason I must leave this party, i will not join any
other party, (or I will join the SLP, even that I do not agree with
socialism in one country,) because this is the best party in the whole
working class movement. I think you must work a little more in your
ideological education, then you will understand the concept of a socialist
party
Post by tetraedronico
I don't believe that one need to pay a fee to become a socialist or make
contributions to earn a right to say anything about socialism. I've seen
here some folks making distinctions between party members and
sympathizers,
Post by tetraedronico
in such a dismissive way that pains me because I'm not a member, never
been
Post by tetraedronico
and I'm not sure I will.
I don't think people necessarely need to join a party to become
Socialists. A socialist to me is a person that believes in the
fundamental
Post by tetraedronico
principles behind socialism, this is not a secret society as far as I
know,
Post by tetraedronico
where the truth is only revealed to the upper members of their clans, so
I
Post by tetraedronico
agree with you Marcos, Socialism is not a revealed truth communicated
from
Post by tetraedronico
above, nevertheless we need to be mature enough to know how to confront
our
Post by tetraedronico
ideas with the rest of our group and be humble sometimes to leave behind
certains erroneous and preconceived ideas like this one of Socialist
Society
Post by tetraedronico
equals Homeless-like Society, this is a fallacy and it is very important
to
Post by tetraedronico
understand so that we can approach non-Socialists and demistify this
notion
Post by tetraedronico
that only brings fears and create unreasonable rejection, Socialism is
very
Post by tetraedronico
unpopular because it's widely misunderstood and it is our duty to be
well
Post by tetraedronico
inform and well prepared when we spread the word. The last century
revolutions that ended up in State capitalism has been very unfavorable
to
Post by tetraedronico
this movement to the extent that most people think that we want to go
back
Post by tetraedronico
to such kind of society, like peasants in a Russian state, or being
homeless
Post by tetraedronico
in eastern Berlin, or having a one-child policy on top of us, or living
in
Post by tetraedronico
the missery of the Cuban state, we need to work harder in order to draw
a
Post by tetraedronico
clear line between a pseudo socialist state and a world wide Socialist
society and what should the people expect from the two antagonistic
philosophies.
Good night.
Tetraedrónico
----- Mensaje original ----
Enviado: sábado, 27 de octubre, 2007 20:27:53
Asunto: Re: [WSM_Forum] Message for Robin
Have you ever been a member of any vanguard party ? Under the vanguard
party, members must agree on everything that comes from the central
committee, and the so called democratic centralism never works, and even
if
you do not agree in certain issue, one must agree because it was
approved
Post by tetraedronico
by
the central committee, and the only ones allow to write in the newspaper
are
the members of the central committee, and they are the only one
authorized
Post by tetraedronico
to speak in public representing the party. I have seen more freedom of
expression in the WSM than in other so called communist parties. You
should
join the RCPUSA and raise a critique against a saint called Bob Avakian,
or
against a pope called Mao Tse Tung, wait for the results, or the
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada and raised a critique against Hardian
Vains, or the MPUSA that were similar to a convent or a monastery, at
least
in the WSM we can raise a critique against Marx, Engels and we have
demystified Vladimir Lenin, I saw certain situation where the members of
the
central committee and the members of another organizations were killing
each
other just based on ideological and organization differences
Post by Paula
Robin
The only solution to capitalist problems is to join - or as a
minimum, not disagree with - the SPGB.
Anyone who thinks that they have an alternative route to socialism
will be shot down in flames.
So don't come to our forum Robin, and expect to get away with
anything.
Post by tetraedronico
Post by Paula
Graham has my full backing.
Paula
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